Judy, I am a little surprised at your bias.
It is, in fact, the only thing
you have going for you in this discussion in this particular post. Check
it out .....
jt: I wouldn't call it MY bias
John. I didn't write the Bible.
John: ... exegete is exegete. Paul uses "law" in this text 10
times. Eight times he omits the definite article "the" and twice
he includes it. The point of the passage is that "salvation" is possible for one who has not heard anything about
law or The Law. To argue that this Gentile is knowingly subject to
the "perfect law of liberty" is to make the passage
pointless.
jt: To put your meaning
into this text one would need to negate or change a lot of other passages.
This means there is "another" way to be saved. Some must be born again, die to
the old flesh nature, and walk in the perfect law of liberty; where
others can just be "good folk" and nice neighbors. I don't see this
concept anywhere else in the entire Bible - do you
John?
John: Pointless? This exegetical obervation is
pointless? The general application of
"law" verses the specfic application is
point less -- not to me. This is an observation about the
written Word of God. At last look, you and I consider the written
word to be of great importance.
jt: I'm not aware of this
differentiation.
John ....?of Christ does BY NATURE what is required in God's
law,
Obviously, this is not true. But you reject the very
scripture that gives us this broader point of view. And
God's law is conviction, love and Spirit. That is what the
biblical message says. What you are doing is putting one scripture against
another instead of allowing one to add to you understanding of
another. No good.
jt: Jesus didn't come to patch up the old.
He came to introduce something entirely new.
John: Let me put this observation into context. In the Roman
letter, especially the first 7 chapters, Paul is saying over and over again
that man is a sinner and God saves him in spite of himself.
jt: Not without his knowledge and consent. God
does not sneak in the back way, nor does he manipulate or coerce; this man
(like the rest of us) is a sinner who has come to Christ, partaken of the
divine nature, and who is in the process of "being saved" .. This is the
only way he could be doing by NATURE what is in God's law.
John: The Gentile in Romans 2:12-16 has an avenue of justification
available to him -- doing by nature the things of law.
jt: This is an impossibility for an
unregenerate soul who is outside the Covenants of grace and is by nature
a "child of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3). The law Paul refers to here is God's
Law.
John: Impossible? All things are possible -- especially
when scripture says so. And Rom 2:12-16 clear makes that
statement.
jt: I believe you are reading into the text meaning
that is not there. God is not doubleminded and He will not violate His
own Word - actually it is impossible for Him to lie. It would be
nice to think that everyone makes it, that God would lower his standard for
some but this is living in religious fantasy. It is not reality.
God has set the standard and it is the "royal law" Incidentally this law
is the same as the Old Covenant law. If you compare the Sermon on the
Mount with the Ten Commandments given to Moses on Mt. Sinai you will find that
Moses was given the letter and we have the Spirit of the same
law.
John: In a practical sense, most will fail in this regard, or at
least a good number of individuals will fail. On the day of
judgment, this man has no excuse. He cannot say, "But no one told
me about Christ." In certain parts of the world, today, he could say
this. God will only point to his personal choices and hold him
accountable for his actions through Christ.
jt: There is no excuse anyway John Romans 1:21,22
strips away that delusion. If they choose to seek Him God will make sure
someone comes to them with the truth as he did with Cornelius in the book of
Acts. If not He will CAUSE them to believe the lie because they refused
to love the truth. (2 Thess 2:11)
John: None of this logic counters Ro 2:12-16. Why not allow
this text to amend your belief?
jt: Romans 2:12-16 in balance and context is
Paul writing to the Church at Rome whose faith has been spoken of over
the entire world and who he says has like faith with him. Why do
you make it so difficult to accept that the gentile in this text is born
again and part of the New Creation in Christ; A gentile who does by
nature the things that are in the law because he's been made a "partaker
of the divine nature?".
John: In Christ, my sins, my inactivity, my failure is
covered. This Gentile stands before God on judgment day with
nothing available to him but the state of affairs of his heart.
jt: Better make sure they are right. All
judgment in heaven and on earth has been given to the Son and we have a
picture of this in the gospels. Many will come to Him and say "Lord, Lord,
didn't I do this and that - and he will reply "I never did know you" depart
from me.... He is the one who determines who is one of His sheep and who is a
goat. His sheep are the ones who hear His Voice... they don't follow the
other voices. Please don't be carried away with these doctrines John....
Only the Truth makes us free.
John: So the guy who has never heard the gospel is lost? I do
not pretend to establish my belief with this question BUT, it is a
consideration.
jt: Yes. This is what the scriptures teach "But
if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost; in whom the god of this
world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the
glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God should shine unto them (2
Cor 4:3,4).
John: I am saying that the truth of this
passage presents the Gentile having not heard the "law"
with no excuse. It is not that he will say "I have done
this and that." Rather, God will say to him (assuming he is lost) "Judy and John and Jonathan and
BillT and Lance and, well, the larger community of believers I see as an
extension of who I am, they failed you -- they did not get to you with the preaching
of the gospel, but, my firend, you did not rise to any level of kindness or
consideration of others. You lived for and unto yourself --
never practicing the kindness that you saw in some who lived in your
world. You are without excuse. See ya."
jt: Look at the text again John. Jesus didn't say
"you didn't practice kindness or "You lived for yourself". Jesus said
they practiced "lawlessness" and SIN is lawlessness according to 1 John
3:4. This is why IMO it is so important to know what sin is and what sin
is not so that we too can "go and sin no more" judyt
John
