re: [TruthTalk] Original Sin

[Bill Taylor]

It may not bother y'all to read all my spelling mistakes (thank you for being so gracious), but it bothers me very much when I make them -- so, as a form of penitence, I have corrected some mistakes below:   Thanks,   Bill   ----- Original Message -----  From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:43 AM  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Original Sin     Bill Taylor wrote: Young children are included in Christ's recapitulation of humanity and remain so until they refuse him and therefore that justification of life. David responds  >  One argument that Paul makes for the continuing condemnation is the observation of death.  I don't see any change after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection in regards to humans being born into death.  Those who are born appear to continue to be born into death in the same way that they did prior to Christ's incarnation.  Do you see it differently?   Yes, David: as long as God is patient, not willing that any should perish but come to repentance, humans will continue to die for the same reason that Adam died after he sinned: they will remain removed from the tree of life, lest they eat of it and live forever under the conditions of the fall. (See below for more comments on this)   Bill Taylor wrote: Hence I wrote: they are saved, whereupon Izzy disagreed, arguing instead that they don't need to be saved because they have not sinned. If I remember you correctly, I think you take a similar position. David responds  >  No, I'm not comfortable with the idea that infants do not need to be saved because they have not sinned.  I admit that I have trouble seeing how guilt would be imputed to someone who has not sinned (Ezek. 18 supports this view), but it seems to me that they are still born into death and are in a state that is separated from God.  There are questions about all of this that I am still trying to work out in my mind.  The Augustinian tradition seems to delineate two different kinds of guilt.  I suppose I tend toward that perspective.  There also appears to be different kinds of condemnation, the condemnation that comes from the sin of those in authority over us (hence, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation) versus the condemnation for sin committed in ignorance versus the condemnation for sin committed willfully and obstinately. If I am hearing you right, I think you do not perceive any condemnation due to those who commit sins in ignorance.  If I am hearing you wrong on this, please clarify.  Thanks. David     David, I do very much think that all Christians today need to be very diligent in thinking themselves through the influence of Augustine on their anthological interpretations. He has had a colossal impact on our thinking in this area. Perhaps when they have done that, they will continue to agree with him, which is their prerogative. My suspicion, however, is that most are unaware of his influence on their theological perspectives and will want to adjust their thinking, once they have worked themselves through his theology, and realized the influence of Manicheaism on his thought processes.   To be truthful with you, David, I have not thought about this in the terms you are drawing to my attention. I will want to look into the meaning of "condemnation" in the context it is used here. If that condemnation is as I stated above, i.e., an effect from the initial removal of A&W from the tree of life, I believe children do suffer that condemnation with all humanity. Jesus himself was born under the judgment of that condemnation -- I think, hmmmmm. I also think that all humans are born with a propensity toward sin, Jesus included, which is another result of Adam's offence. But in his victorious resurrection Christ became the merciful justification of ALL life (which is why God in his forbearance did not "impute" their trespasses to them), including life after death, which will be granted to deceased children via their inclusion in him. Anyway, if you don't mind I would like to look into this a bit further before being any more specific.   Bill