I formulated these questions based on my understanding of Mormon beliefs which, you have pointed out before, do not always align with what mormons really beleive. So, let me frame my questions in a different light, and maybe I will get an answer. (I really do not expect long answers on these...but I also would not like to get the run-around).
1. Is it true that some mormon men will be (or have been) exalted to godhood, and that in this state they have flesh and bones?
2. Is it true that these exalted mormon men-gods can (or may choose to) marry multiple wives?
3. As far as you know is there a Mormon doctrine, teaching, or belief on whether Mormon women are raised as spirits or as beings with flesh and bones like the men-gods are? I am talking about the mormon women that become married to exalted Mormon men-gods. Are they flesh and bones, or spirit?
(I think this is where we diverged on the last go-round. I think this is what you do not know, but it really does not affect the outcome of my questioning. It only decides which question should be asked in the end...but I will ask both below, so that regardless of the answer (or lack of an answer) you will see at what I was getting.)
4. Do the mormon men-gods have sex with their multiple wives (regardless of their nature...spirit or F&B) to produce offspring? (If you do not call it sex, or do not know the method, then forget that term...do they somehow produce offspring with their multipl wives?)
5. Are these offspring spiritual in nature, or of flesh and bones? [I believe the answer here is "spiritual"...correct me if I am wrong. Blaine has confirmed this before on more than one occasion, and you may have, too.]
6. Is it true that you (and in the Mormon view, all humans) were once such a spirit child of an exalted man-god and one of his wives?
7. Is it true that the mormon jesus was such a spirit child, and is your (full or half) brother?
8. Is it true that the mormon satan was also such a spirit child and is your and jesus' (and in the mormon view, all humans') half brother (maybe full brother if any of you had the same mother!)?
Having gotten this far, let me state my two questions based on the answers to the questions above. One applies to the case where these wives are F&B, the other if they are spirits:
A. (Spitual wife case): If an exalted god-man has a spiritual wife with whom he produces spiritual offspring, of which you were once an example, it seems odd to me that a flesh and bones exalted man could produce spiritual offspring with a spiritual wife. Did he contribute no flesh and bones material to the process?
B. (Flesh and bones wife case): If an exalted god-man has a flesh and bones wife with whom he produces spiritual offspring, of which you were once an example, it seems odd to me that a flesh and bones exalted man could produce spiritual offspring with a flesh and bones wife. Did they not both contribute flesh and bones material to the process?
These two questions are what I was getting at. To me they are paradoxical...to you it is a mystery...questions for which the mormons have no answer. You believe something happens (exalted god-men with possibly multiple wives have spiritual babies)...you don't know exactly what or how it happens...a true Mormon mystery.
I will forego asking for a prooftext since the Bible will not substantiate any of this.
As for calling your bishop...I was seeking a referral...which I much prefer to cold-calling. And, since we both know you, it would give us some common ground on which to strike up a conversation :-)
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:29:26 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, I do not want to lampoon you...I want to lampoon your belief system.
DAVEH: Ahhhhhh....a minor distinction.
My wanting a prooftext is not hypocritical...
DAVEH: Really? Asking such a leading question of me in that manner is a very pointed attack, as I see it. If I were to answer with a Biblical quote, you could then accurately accuse me of prooftexting, because that is what you asked for....a prooftext. First you accuse me of such, then to affirm your assertions, you request me to supply a prooftext. To me that seems hypocritical.
What if I asked you whether you prefer to beat your dog more than your wife? That would be a similar leading question. Do you want to be thought of as a dog beater....or....a wife beater? It would all be speculation that produces a false conclusion, would it not? That's why leading questions are not allowed in a court of law. Speculation presented in such a manner often times leads to false conclusions.
I believe that the Mormon view of this is heretical and that there is no biblical support for this position,
DAVEH? Mormon view??? Other than the stipulation of God having a body of flesh and bone (which I've discussed in length previously...and will do so again if you wish), there is no Mormon view of what you asked. As I said....it is all (excepting God having flesh and bones) pure speculation. I know of no Scripture or LDS teachings that answer the questions you posed.
so any scripture you quote would be a prooftext. I want to know what prooftexts the Mormons use to substantiate their beliefs on this.
In the past I have been admonished by you: "if you want to know what mormons beleive, ask a mormon".
DAVEH: And I've told you. To my knowledge, the LDS Church has no doctrines about the questions you've brought up. All I've ever heard discussed about such matters has been purely a matter of speculation. Now Perry....you've asked me, and I've told you.
That is what I am doing...giving you an opportunity to set me straight on your beliefs
DAVEH: FTR.......I repeat. I have no doctrinal beliefs about the questions you asked, excepting the exaltation and F&B attributes of God.
before I repeat them...and now you admonish me for having an active imagination.
Maybe Blaine will help us out on this one. Or, you can give me your bishop's phone number and I'll call him and ask. Yes, I will say that you referred me.
DAVEH: ??? For what purpose do you want to talk to my Bishop? You live in Orange County (I think), Perry. There must be one or two down there. :-) Just pick up a phone book and let your fingers do the walking if you want to speak to an LDS Bishop. I suspect he'll affirm what I've just told you.
I ask these questions because they seem to pose a contradiction
DAVEH: It is meaningless contradiction if it is speculation. I can speculate that you would rather beat your dog than your wife....but I don't waste my time. Why would you?
...that men of flesh and bones and women of flesh and bones produce spirit babies...or that men of fleash and bones conjugate with spiritual women and produce spirit offspring.
DAVEH: Like I said....you certainly have an active imagination, Perry.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:07:00 -0700
DAVEH: My, you do have an active imagination, Perry. Except for the belief that God is an exalted being that has a physical body of flesh and bone (that houses a spiritual body), which is taught by LDS theology....the rest that you've mentioned below is pure speculation and not supported by any Scripture of which I'm aware. Blaine is a bit smarter than me though....perhaps he knows something I don't.
BTW........For a guy who previously criticized me several times for offering *prooftexts from the bible*, now you are requesting them?!?!?! Hmmmmm.....seems rather hypocritical to me, Perry. Do you really want to know what I believe, and what I believe Scripture teaches, Perry.....or do you just want to lampoon me?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave (and Blaine if you are still around),
I have been wondering this for a few days, and need you help to understand it.
The mormon god is an exalted man, of flesh and bones, right? And, he has multiple (would you say a thousand or so?) spiritual wives, right? And, he has sex with them (or did in the past) to produce spirit babies, right?
May I assume, then, that men who have become gods, yet are still flesh and bones, as you say the mormon god is, can have sex with spiritual wives?
Or, are these wives exalted women of flesh and bones, too? If they were mortal men and women who became exalted, and are of flesh and bones, how do they have spiritual babies? Why do they not have flesh and bone babies? Are there any mormon prooftexts from the bible that support this?
Thanks. Inquiring minds want to know.
Perry
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