Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, I am honest with my responses to you. It is not
hypocritical for me to ask for a prooftext. If you asked me the
wife/dog question I would answer "neither...next question". That is a
valid answer, and gives the correct response. You answered that you do
not know of any Mormon position with respect to my question. That is a
fair answer.
DAVEH: I'm curious.......why did you ask it a second time?
I formulated these questions based on my understanding of Mormon
beliefs which, you have pointed out before, do not always align with
what mormons really beleive. So, let me frame my questions in a
different light, and maybe I will get an answer. (I really do not
expect long answers on these...but I also would not like to get the
run-around).
1. Is it true that some mormon men will be (or have been) exalted to
godhood, and that in this state they have flesh and bones?
DAVEH: Yes...that is LDS theology.
2. Is it true that these exalted mormon men-gods can (or may choose to)
marry multiple wives?
DAVEH: Some LDS folks have speculated such, but I do not recall any
specific passages from the Standard Works to support that theory.
3. As far as you know is there a Mormon doctrine, teaching, or belief
on whether Mormon women are raised as spirits or as beings with flesh
and bones like the men-gods are?
DAVEH: That is a bit confusing, Perry.....But the next question is a
bit clearer.
I am talking about the mormon women that become married
to exalted Mormon men-gods. Are they flesh and bones, or spirit?
DAVEH: Both.
(I think this is where we diverged on the last go-round. I think this
is what you do not know, but it really does not affect the outcome of
my questioning. It only decides which question should be asked in the
end...but I will ask both below, so that regardless of the answer (or
lack of an answer) you will see at what I was getting.)
4. Do the mormon men-gods have sex with their multiple wives
(regardless of their nature...spirit or F&B) to produce offspring?
(If you do not call it sex, or do not know the method, then forget that
term...do they somehow produce offspring with their multipl wives?)
DAVEH: I know of nothing in the Standard Works that addresses your
question.
5. Are these offspring spiritual in nature, or of flesh and bones?
DAVEH: If I understand the nature of your question correctly (and now
it makes a bit more sense to me than the way you put it before), I
would presume (speculation, if you will) that they would be spirit
beings because one gains the flesh and bone physical (as we know it)
body by being born into mortality. Again....I do not think this is
covered in the Standard Works.
[I believe the answer here is "spiritual"...correct me if
I am wrong. Blaine has confirmed this before on more than one occasion,
and you may have, too.]
6. Is it true that you (and in the Mormon view, all humans) were once
such a spirit child of an exalted man-god and one
DAVEH: Yes, that is doctrinal as I understand it.
of his wives?
DAVEH: That is not addressed in the Standard Works.
7. Is it true that the mormon jesus was such a spirit child,
DAVEH: Yes, as I understand it.
and is your (full or half) brother?
DAVEH: Full brother, but I suppose that could be construed as
speculation as well. We sometimes refer to him as our Elder Brother,
as he was firstborn of the spirits.
8. Is it true that the mormon satan
DAVEH: Interesting way to put that, Perry......May I suggest a better
way of stating such would be to say.....the Mormon teaching about
Satan.....
was also such a spirit child
DAVEH: Yes.
and is your and jesus' (and in the mormon view, all
humans') half brother (maybe full brother if any of you had the same
mother!)?
DAVEH: We consider both Jesus and Lucifer (as well as ourselves) to be
spirit creations of our Heavenly Father. While Jesus is our Elder
Brother to whom we are eternally indebted, Satan is a fallen brother
who has chosen to fight against the Lord, and has subsequently been
cast out of heaven.
Having gotten this far, let me state my two questions based on the
answers to the questions above. One applies to the case where these
wives are F&B, the other if they are spirits:
A. (Spitual wife case): If an exalted god-man has a spiritual wife with
whom he produces spiritual offspring, of which you were once an
example, it seems odd to me that a flesh and bones exalted man could
produce spiritual offspring with a spiritual wife. Did he contribute no
flesh and bones material to the process?
DAVEH: Not applicable, if I understand the premise correctly.
B. (Flesh and bones wife case): If an exalted god-man has a flesh and
bones wife with whom he produces spiritual offspring, of which you were
once an example, it seems odd to me that a flesh and bones exalted man
could produce spiritual offspring with a flesh and bones wife. Did they
not both contribute flesh and bones material to the process?
DAVEH: That question is not directly addressed by LDS theology as far
as I know. However, there is certainly some clues/evidence that lends
itself to speculation. If I was chatting with another LDS person like
Blaine, it would be very easy to speculate about it without getting
either of our noses bent out of shape. We could draw some thoughtful
conclusions in the end, but it would still be speculation,
Since I know you are just itching to find out what Mormons would
say in private, let me give you a primer without going into all the
details. As I understand it, spirit matter is not some ethereal
nothing, but is still a physical material that is just more refined
(if that is the proper word for it) than the physical matter we
think of in the world in which we live. Furthermore, the exalted body
of flesh and bones you (I assume) and I believe Jesus now is comprises
is not of the same nature as the physical body that we experience in
mortality. As I'm sure you know, our mortal bodies are composed of
flesh and blood (and spirit), and are not able to walk through walls as
did Jesus' resurrected body of flesh and bone. Do you agree with me so
far, Perry?
Hence.....You seem to want to draw conclusions as to what will/can
happen with exalted bodies based on your experience with mortal
bodies. Not only is doing so illogical, but it can lead to inaccurate
conclusions. So....in the absence of Scriptural commentary, any such
speculation is theological risky.
These two questions are what I was getting at. To me they are
paradoxical...to you it is a mystery...questions for which the mormons
have no answer.
DAVEH: ??? When did I say I did not have an answer, Perry? The
question is whether the answer can be based on doctrinal support of the
Standard Works (you specifically asked for Biblical evidence) or
whether the answer is based on speculation. Most (though not all, as I
stipulated about the F&B nature of an exalted being) of the
questions you posed were only answerable by speculation.
You believe something happens (exalted god-men with
possibly multiple wives have spiritual babies)...you don't know exactly
what or how it happens...a true Mormon mystery.
DAVEH: I think I've said this before, Perry.....I'm not a poster child
for the Church. Nor am I the smartest Mormon boy in the LDS Church.
Most of the questions you posed only seem like a mystery to you because
they are not addressed by Scripture. And when you start speculating
about the possible answers, your preconceived notions send you off on a
tangent that is far removed from reality of what Mormons believe.
I will forego asking for a prooftext since the Bible will not
substantiate any of this.
DAVEH: Ohhhhhh....I guess you must have read my replies that said the
same thing, eh.
As for calling your bishop...I was seeking a referral
DAVEH: ??? Referral for what? Do you think the Bishop is a Bishop
because he is doctrinally smarter than others in the congregation?
...which I much prefer to cold-calling.
And, since we both know you, it would give us some common
ground on which to strike up a conversation :-)
DAVEH: What is it you want to know from a Bishop that you don't think
I can explain, Perry?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:29:26 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, I do not want to lampoon you...I want
to lampoon your belief system.
DAVEH: Ahhhhhh....a minor distinction.
My wanting a prooftext is not hypocritical...
DAVEH: Really? Asking such a leading question of me in that manner is
a very pointed attack, as I see it. If I were to answer with a
Biblical quote, you could then accurately accuse me of prooftexting,
because that is what you asked for....a prooftext. First you accuse me
of such, then to affirm your assertions, you request me to supply a
prooftext. To me that seems hypocritical.
What if I asked you whether you prefer to beat your dog more than
your wife? That would be a similar leading question. Do you want to
be thought of as a dog beater....or....a wife beater? It would all be
speculation that produces a false conclusion, would it not? That's why
leading questions are not allowed in a court of law. Speculation
presented in such a manner often times leads to false conclusions.
I believe that the Mormon view of this is
heretical and that there is no biblical support for this position,
DAVEH? Mormon view??? Other than the stipulation of God having a
body of flesh and bone (which I've discussed in length previously...and
will do so again if you wish), there is no Mormon view of what you
asked. As I said....it is all (excepting God having flesh and bones)
pure speculation. I know of no Scripture or LDS teachings that answer
the questions you posed.
so any scripture you quote would be a
prooftext. I want to know what prooftexts the Mormons use to
substantiate their beliefs on this.
In the past I have been admonished by you: "if you want to know what
mormons beleive, ask a mormon".
DAVEH: And I've told you. To my knowledge, the LDS Church has no
doctrines about the questions you've brought up. All I've ever heard
discussed about such matters has been purely a matter of speculation.
Now Perry....you've asked me, and I've told you.
That is what I am doing...giving you an
opportunity to set me straight on your beliefs
DAVEH: FTR.......I repeat. I have no doctrinal beliefs about the
questions you asked, excepting the exaltation and F&B attributes of
God.
before I repeat them...and now you admonish
me for having an active imagination.
Maybe Blaine will help us out on this one. Or, you can give me your
bishop's phone number and I'll call him and ask. Yes, I will say that
you referred me.
DAVEH: ??? For what purpose do you want to talk to my Bishop? You
live in Orange County (I think), Perry. There must be one or two down
there. :-) Just pick up a phone book and let your fingers do the
walking if you want to speak to an LDS Bishop. I suspect he'll affirm
what I've just told you.
I ask these questions because they seem to pose a contradiction
DAVEH: It is meaningless contradiction if it is speculation. I can
speculate that you would rather beat your dog than your wife....but I
don't waste my time. Why would you?
...that men of flesh and bones and women of
flesh and bones produce spirit babies...or that men of fleash and bones
conjugate with spiritual women and produce spirit offspring.
DAVEH: Like I said....you certainly have an active imagination,
Perry.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:07:00 -0700
DAVEH: My, you do have an active imagination, Perry. Except for the
belief that God is an exalted being that has a physical body of flesh
and bone (that houses a spiritual body), which is taught by LDS
theology....the rest that you've mentioned below is pure speculation
and not supported by any Scripture of which I'm aware. Blaine is a bit
smarter than me though....perhaps he knows something I don't.
BTW........For a guy who previously criticized me several times for
offering *prooftexts from the bible*, now you are requesting
them?!?!?! Hmmmmm.....seems rather hypocritical to me, Perry. Do you
really want to know what I believe, and what I believe Scripture
teaches, Perry.....or do you just want to lampoon me?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave (and Blaine if you are still
around),
I have been wondering this for a few days, and need you help to
understand it.
The mormon god is an exalted man, of flesh and bones, right? And, he
has multiple (would you say a thousand or so?) spiritual wives, right?
And, he has sex with them (or did in the past) to produce spirit
babies, right?
May I assume, then, that men who have become gods, yet are still
flesh and bones, as you say the mormon god is, can have sex with
spiritual wives?
Or, are these wives exalted women of flesh and bones, too? If they
were mortal men and women who became exalted, and are of flesh and
bones, how do they have spiritual babies? Why do they not have flesh
and bone babies? Are there any mormon prooftexts from the bible that
support this?
Thanks. Inquiring minds want to know.
Perry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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