-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:04:15 -0700
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
I do not believe in revelation that is something other than personal.DAVEH: May I assume that means you believe the heavens were sealed sometime in the early first few centuries? Is there Biblical support that you would offer to support your position on this?This assumption has meaning to you - I am afraid your question is not understood by me.
DAVEH: Do you believe God could reveal his will to prophets in post Bible times? Or do you believe God no longer needs prophets to reveal his will....effectively meaning the heavens are closed?
Again, I would not reference my belief in terms of "heaven closed" God can do anything He wants -- just as He has in the past. Prophecy is one of the spiritual gifts Paul mentions in I Corninthians and is a desireable gift. Perhaps we have a difference in definition on this one. A prophet who functions as a spokesman for God to a nation of God's people ????? no , I do not believe that to be the case. There is no nation. The prophet in the church, today, functions for a very different reason. Eph 4:11-16 gives us several categories of leaders within the assembly of the the Saints (whether latter day or otherwise) AND the purpose/mission of each. In scrpture (and this is what an Okie pastor thinks -- someone else can polish up the theology of it all). The "apostle" was not a ranking official in the church -- rather he was one to
whom God gave the ministry we see in the "Great Commission." Their work was evangelistic in concept and foundational in nature. All of the Christian church was founded upon the work of these righteous ancients. Why do you suppose we hear next to nothing about this group of men? Well, I believe it is because they were busy. They were the ones who could resist poisonings, raise the dead, work the miracles, testify first hand to the incarnation and blessed resurrection. Tradition tells us that each - to a man - died for this foundational work. We have prophets in the church today ..... but their ministry reflects the purposes set forth in this Ephesian passage. Ditto for the evangelists, pastors and teachers.
Just as I beleive that had Christ come in this modern time - His mission would have failed - so i believe the biblical message was completed by or near the end of the first century. The Bible has a wide ranging acceptance that would not be afforded to any other "scripture" offered at another time.I do not believe in the continued appointment of apostles,DAVEH: Yet isn't that what happened in the early years....witness Paul & Barnabas?As important as Paul is, he is not one of the 12. The Chruch of Jesus Christ was founded on the work and mission of the original 12 and their names appear on the 12 foundation stones in The City from Heaven for that very reason. I do not confuse Paul and Barnabas with the 12. That they share in this foundational ministry is undeniable, however. This foundational ministry has been accomplished !! The church, in all it's imperfectons, is 2000 years old. The extended ministry is not one of a foundational nature but one of reconcliation - to which we have all been called (II Cor 5:18).
DAVEH: ??? Are you suggesting Judas was more important as an apostle than Paul? Is Judas' name engraved on the foundation, and there is no room for subsequent others?
Judas did not live long to receive the Commission of the Twelve nor the victory that rose up from his own betrayal.................................of course.
if we are using that word in the same vein as the "12." So - there is much that remains, not the lest of which is the ancient message. I have yet to see any accepted doctrine effected by textual problems. I am sure we disagree on much of what I have said above --- Why are you concerned by such an "omission?"DAVEH: I've been criticized for my belief in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. Yet it seems there is a vast difference between some translations. Why some folks would be bothered by my comment seems strange when one looks at some of the differences between the various translations.Again, you have a received teaching that is differenct from mine. I see not a single important variation in translation that purport to be language translations as opposed to thought translations. You have church tradition that teaches the use of the phrase "as far as it is tranlated correctly." I do not.
Just a few days ago, somebody who didn't know me other than I am LDS suggested I read the last few paragraphs of the Bible, trying to get me to realize that one should not add to or subtract from the Word of God. (In fact, I think Izzy has made similar remarks in the past here on TT.) I do not understand the thinking of many people -- Linda Shields, Kevin, Judy and DM are only a few of the many who remain a mystery to me. The prohibition against adding to the "words of this book" have to do with the Revelation only, IMO. At the same time, I believe the biblical message to bear the mark of inspiration and providential protection and supply. It contains God's message, His spoken word, for us today. More than that -- it is a part of the vehicle God uses to cause spiritual growth and maturity -- victory over personal and destructive error. I need nothing else, in terms of revelation, than this ancient message and its confirmation in the lives of those with whom I fellowship.
DAVEH: Thanx for your explanation.
I wonder if folks who think like that are bothered when some versions remove entire passages. People like that are obviously bothered by just about anything one might offer in terms of shared instruction and doctrinal benefit. But God can save us all -- even a midget in the faith.
DAVEH: I'm not sure all TTers would agree.... :-)
Midgets don't have as good a perspective in some matters as others.
JD
