Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E

[Dave Hansen]

DAVEH:   As I see it, most traditional Christians believe that God wanted A&E to not transgress, effectively leaving them in a state of naivety.  Is that the way you perceive it, John?     You are right about confusion that could arise from not defining predestined when discussing it.  Since I believe A&E existed pre-mortally, the plan of salvation unfolded exactly as God desired it to be implemented.  That is not to say that he forced (predestined, as I like to think of it) A&E to transgress.  That was their choice.  Had they not had such a choice, then they would necessarily be forced to transgress in a predestined manner.......effectively removing their ability to understand the difference between right and wrong.  I don't know if any of that makes sense, but as I see it A&E needed to be free of being forced to keep the commandments.  IOW....for the plan of salvation to unfold, they needed to have free agency without being predestined (forced) to keep the commandments.     Does it not boil down to which would be better.....for A&E to transgress, or for them not to transgress?  Is not the popular assumption that we are worse off with the fall of A&E?   Yet had they not transgressed, it seems to me that the plan of salvation would have been much more complicated.      Which leads me to another question.....Do you think there could be a mortal existence without needing a plan of salvation?  Now that I've asked that, it seems rather ridiculous, eh!   IF there are mortals, it would imply that a plan of salvation is necessary....do you agree?     [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well,   I don't know if it surprises me.    But,  I do not think we have given enough attention to developing a thorough understanding of  their existence before and after the "fall."   It seems to me that the "fall" is more clearly taught in Church Tradition than exegetically.      But I am guilty of my own criticism at this point !     As with many words,  "predestined" might carry a different meaning to you than to myself.   I believe that A&E   were going to fail,  and in this observation,  one could argue that they were predestined to fail.   But I would never use that word in this case because of the confusion it might cause.  Adam and Eve's story is not about the "fall,"  IMO, Rather, their account  is the first sentence in the story of the Incarnation.   I see them as the first to receive the lesson that -   as law breakers  --  there must be more to their lives than themselves and their obedience/disobedience.    And it is always "obedience slash disobedience,"  isn't it?  Those two terms   cannot be separated   --------------------&n bsp;  except in Christ.   If we do not&nbs p;see  their story  (and again, this is my feeble consideration) as INCOMPLETE apart for their eventual attachment to Christ,  we miss the point and become Plan B disciples.  To my way of thinking,  the bible message is about Law versus Grace  --  death versus life.    And that story is not complete, hence the creation event is not complete,  apart from all that concerns us and the Christ  (our Creator).     Man is a sinner apart from Christ's consideration   --  even if he is concerned with but a single consideration of law  (thou shalt not eat) and, in time, man will validate that truth.    jd                     -----Original Message----- From: Dave Hansen <dave@langlitz.com> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:06:45 -0800 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E No.  Actually,  I have never heard this question discussed DAVEH:   That rather surprises me.  I remember asking Perry a similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off.  That rather surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.      As I understand, most Christians (including Protestants, RCC and independents) believe that God wanted A&E not to transgress.  IFF that was actually his intention, then it seems an interesting thought avenue to pursue.   Yet, the few who've responded seem to indicate that they have no interest in pondering what the Lord intended to be.   To me, that seems very strange.  Does it strike you as rather curious, John? were A & E predestined to sin? DAVEH:   Yes, I di d ask that question.  I do not know what you folks b elieve about predestination and foreordination.  Since you apparently do not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem to me that you would not believe in either.  But....I don't want to assume such without at least asking you first. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No.  Actually,  I have never heard this question discussed.     You asked me to comment on a question  --  perhaps a week ago, now.  Aaaahhhhhh,   was it "were A & E predestined to sin?    jd    DAVEH:  May I suggest another topic of interest to me?  I am curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would have happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed.  Does that discussion ever come up with you folks? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:    Look  --  what are we going to discuss here on TT?   We have pretty much said all that can be said about any number of subjects.    jd    -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.