John, Derick, I completely agree with you on the importance of a well-defined bridge between client and server within the tg framework, which mostly means a well-defined way of sharing data between client (javascript) and server (python) using tg itself, but there are a number of other important issues. I wrote about exactly this point almost 3 years ago:
http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears-trunk/browse_thread/thread/c8492173ee8a473e Cheers, Daniel On 11/9/10, John_Nowlan <[email protected]> wrote: > This (the state of python web frameworks) has been rolling around my head > all week. I agree completely with what Derick has said. > > I mainly lurk on tg, pylons, pyjamas and other python web framework lists. I > originally chose pylons because of sqlalchemy and its ability to handle > composite keys. We have had some success here promoting python (we mainly > work with a big erp java oracle system) but the vendor has recently come out > saying they are moving to groovy and zk. I'd much rather work with python > but I see the python frameworks losing ground to java (with oracle being a > wild card). > > With Google releasing gwt designer there appears to be less reason > (unfortunately) to use python. The java to javascript toolchain appears > strong, with other players (wavemaker, titanium) also in this space. Perhaps > without corporate backing it is unrealistic to expect python to be able to > compete. > > One exception to this is https://github.com/robertolupi/genropy, video > http://blip.tv/file/3837476 but it still seems like early days there. Using > dojo looks great, but not using sqlalchemy probably makes it a non-starter > for us. > > Pyramid seems to have purposefully left the 'client/browser' area > untouched, concentrating on the server but to me a framwork these days has > to address the client/browser side of the equation as well. It is where the > bar is being raised to with respect to web frameworks. RIA development, > while being a twisted path, seems to be converging towards the benefits that > the web has brought (ease of deployment) with the benefits of client/server > (RAD). > > I'm curious to know what others think, if tg plans to address this piece in > the pyramid puzzle. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Derick Eisenhardt >> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 12:59 PM >> To: TurboGears >> Subject: [TurboGears] Re: A modest proposal for the future of TurboGears >> >> From the discussion so far, I think we can take something Mark said in >> the very first email and choose a direction right here. >> >> >The point I emphasized a bit was that Django is doing a great job of >> >marketing, and the current situation is something like this: >> >#1 Python web Framework >> > ---> Django >> >#2 Python web framework >> > ---> TurboGears or Pylons or repoze.bfg or flask or... >> >> Whatever direction is chosen we want the end result to lead us in the >> goal of redefining that logic as: >> >> Python web frameworks: >> #1 Django (let's just be realistic here) >> #2 Turbogears (full-featured web app development stack) >> #3 Pyramid, web-core, etc... (build it yourself + disparate >> components) >> >> Basically TG needs to move out of the pool of "other" and rise above >> to the step new devs look at before they dig in to #3. >> >> Personally what I'd like to see is a solid, stable stack...with pretty >> much every component most users will need 99% of the time built-in and >> fully integrated. As while it's good to offer choice of various >> components (hence why I chose TG over Django), TG2 has a few areas >> that are not very pythonic...there needs to be one obvious, preferred >> way, and if you want to venture into another direction, that's up to >> you...but TG's documentation will primarily focus on the "correct" >> way. >> >> One thing that has really bothered me ideologically in this area is >> TG2's seeming lack of a preferred Javascript/Widget set (as opposed to >> TG1's implied integration with MochiKit). Sure, there's Tosca, but >> it's just so limited that it's really only good for simple web sites, >> not true web apps, which as someone already said should be the real >> focus of TG. I don't really care whether it's JQuery, Dojo, Pyjamas or >> some other option...but this needs to be built in and standardized >> upon. For the app I've been working on the past 2+ years I've had to >> write everything myself to get Dojo and TG2 to work together, it could >> really be much much more *automagical* in transferring data between >> client and server and integrating with my templates. >> >> What you really need to be successful is a singular set of tools, with >> just about everything you should need to write a web app built in, >> fully documented as if TG were a single project like Django as far as >> the user is concerned. Abstract out all your dependencies too, there's >> no reason I should be importing things directly from SQLAlchemy or >> Genshi, I should be importing things like tg.database and tg.template, >> even if they're only wrappers so that if and when those things are >> changed I don't have to go back and update my code to the new >> dependency. That also applies to documentation, putting "see docs on >> Dependency X's web site" doesn't cut it. If you want to be the full- >> featured mega framework, then I should rarely have to leave the >> turbogears.org domain. >> >> Whatever is decided, TG or whatever we call this in the future needs a >> much more active community, with more developers, more users, and >> probably some sort of corporate backing where at least a couple of our >> core devs are getting paid full-time to work on TG if it's really >> going to be sustainable and become the vibrant framework we all want >> it to be. Personally I'm still leaning toward the 3 way merger of BFG/ >> Pyrmaid, Pylons and TG, with the 2 package concept Mark mentioned >> (minimal-core vs full-stack). >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TurboGears" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TurboGears" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears?hl=en. > > -- Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TurboGears" group. 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