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Straightforwardly actionable, and I think a no-brainer: we can ensure that remote participation is (imperfect though it is) uniformly available. Not completely straightforward logistically, but I imagine doable: we could allow authors to freely vire paper presentations among the SIGPLAN conferences, and ensure that those are geographically distributed. There'd be some hit to the the character and critical-mass-of-related-people, but that might well be worthwhile. Peter On Tue, 23 Sept 2025 at 17:10, Derek Dreyer <[email protected]> wrote: > [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list > ] > > Thanks for the lively discussion about this issue. However, I'm afraid I > must disagree with the opinions posted so far that advocated for > (temporarily) abandoning conferences in the US. > > Of course, many people in our community are understandably upset because of > the actions of the Trump administration and its effect on immigration and > research. I, too, am very upset about it (to put it mildly). > > But it seems to me there are multiple different issues being conflated in > Gabriel's original post, and the proposed cure is worse than the disease. > In particular, he wrote: "It is pretty clear that the US are not a safe > place for universities right now, and also unpalatable-to-unsafe for people > (especially foreigners) working in universities." > > Concerning the point that the US is not a safe place for universities: I am > not exactly sure what he meant, but I assume he meant that universities are > suffering under the major funding cuts and generally threatening behavior > of the Trump administration. This is certainly true. However, it is not > clear to me how holding an academic conference outside the US for a couple > years will sway Trump to do something different. Furthermore, when > considering other conference locations, I do not recall it ever having been > a priority to select locations based on whether the local government was > particularly supportive of science. Even in its diminished state, the US > government will still be a major contributor to global research funding. > > Concerning the point that the US is "unpalatable-to-unsafe for people > (especially foreigners) working in universities", I again am not completely > sure what this is referring to. If this is referring to non-US citizens > working in universities in the US, who might have their visas revoked on > whatever proclamation Trump thinks up tomorrow, yes, this is really bad. > But as has already been noted by Julia and others, it is *much* easier for > those people to attend conferences in the US than elsewhere. If on the > other hand this is referring to people travelling to the US for the > conference, I heard a few horror stories earlier this year, but I have not > seen evidence that there is widespread harassment of academics entering the > US for a conference. So I think the chance of encountering a problem is > very low. But I agree that this is a valid cause for concern, and I can > understand if people are hesitant to travel to the US because of it. > > Others on the thread have suggested improving our virtual conference > participation options so that US researchers can participate even if the > event is held elsewhere. I am all for improving virtual conference > participation, but we had several years of experimentation with that during > the pandemic, and in the end the verdict seemed to be that it didn't really > work. At least it is not a replacement for in-person participation. But I > think if people are motivated enough, and enough people do not want to > travel to the US for conferences, then it would be a great idea to > experiment with satellite meetings, also for climate reasons. > > In summary, given that a very significant portion of our community includes > people working at US universities, I think that we should not abandon > conferences in the US entirely. We could, however, consider reducing the > frequency with which conferences are located in the US (e.g. to no more > than 1/2 or some smaller fraction of the time), as well as exploring > complementary options like satellite meetings. > > Best wishes, > Derek > > P.S. In response to Artem's question, I would not consider the discussion > on this list to necessarily be representative of the "stance" of the PL > community on this issue. It may be worth gauging the stance of the > research community, but that may be best done with post-conference surveys > at some upcoming SIGPLAN conferences. > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 5:17 PM Artem Shinkarov <[email protected]> wrote: > > > [ The Types Forum, > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list > > ] > > > > Hi > > > > It appears that the argument regarding being "trapped in" is diverting > the > > discussion from the intent of the original post: the toxic attitude of > the > > US towards research and researchers, which requires action from the > > research community. Ban on conferences in the US could serve as a > > meaningful statement or gesture that we ought to consider. > > > > The issue of being "trapped in" is indeed one of the drawbacks > highlighted > > in the original post. However, this situation is not unique to the US; > > similar challenges arise in other countries as well. For instance, > > individuals on visas in the UK may find themselves unable to travel to > > Europe, the US, and beyond. As noted in previous discussions, we can > > address this issue by ensuring adequate online participation and > exploring > > the possibility of satellite events. Nevertheless, the crucial question > > remains: is the research community prepared to express its stance on this > > matter, and what is the most effective way to do so? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > Artem > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 23rd, 2025 at 1:36 PM, Niki Vazou < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > [ The Types Forum, > > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ] > > > > > > Hey, > > > > > > I also agree that moving is getting more complicated (both for the > > > geopolitical events and the environment...) > > > So, maybe a good alternative would be, in parallel to the main event, > to > > > have satellite events. For example, when a conference happens in USA, > to > > > have participants gather in another country to attend/participate. > > > > > > Best, > > > Niki > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 5:35 PM Julia Belyakova [email protected] > wrote: > > > > > > > [ The Types Forum, > > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list > > > > ] > > > > > > > > I don't disagree that the US is not a welcome destination for many > > people > > > > right now. > > > > > > > > I did want to point out the existence of the trapped-in-the-US > > > > international community because in my experience, a lot of people, > > > > understandably, are not aware of this phenomenon. > > > > > > > > In general, there are many reasons why an individual cannot travel > to a > > > > particular location, be it the US or another country. > > > > > > > > To be constructive, I would like to amplify an alternative suggestion > > > > discussed in Zulip, which is to have an explicit policy for > presenting > > the > > > > paper at a different conference that is held in a more suitable > > location > > > > for the author. Similar to what SIGPLAN-track has been doing at > SPLASH. > > > > > > > > Of course, it would require more coordination across the conferences > > and an > > > > additional logistics burden on organizers. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Kind regards, Julia > > > > > > > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://julbinb.github.io/__;!!IBzWLUs!WAX7xyBsdZT3oMFK0lm5dFmak5nvWszH_Tt-tl_8MyRugaEYzh3Sm-WminTMTReV3LLNlPUOJIjBk-3FDMWtDsPMfds$ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 12:27 AM Sanjiva Prasad [email protected] > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > So ia=s my son (for INS reasons) -- could not attend ECOOP or CAV > > this > > > > > year where he had best papers. > > > > > > > > > > But computer science is not a US monopoly (not even in ACM now, > > though > > > > > registered in the US). > > > > > It costs Indians and Chinese and some others USD250 over the visa > > costs > > > > > just to enter the US. > > > > > Am not saying that getting into Europe or India is easier, but US > is > > not > > > > > a welcome destination for many right now. > > > > > > > > > > On 22/09/25 04:18, Julia Belyakova wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > [ The Types Forum, > > > > > > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ] > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand this position but just want to remind that there are > > many > > > > > > international students and professionals in the community who are > > stuck > > > > > > inside the US and cannot cross the border, even to go Canada. > > > > > > > > > > > > I, for one, have been stuck in the US since 2020. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Sanjiva Prasad > > > > > Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering > > > > > Indian Institute of Technology Delhi (IIT Delhi) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Niki Vazou > > >
