hello team. :) I have finished to survey for gnome today. I always thanks to Ubuntu-gnome team. ;) have a great day. 2015. 6. 27. 오후 6:37에 "Narcis Garcia" <informat...@actiu.net>님이 작성:
> Bart, > in my case, If I've provided Gnome (p.e.) to 1000 users, in the 99.99% > cases the OS installation was made by me and not by the final user. > > In other cases (1000 more?) I hadn't the opportunity to teach the final > user about Gnome environment, and I only provided brief printed materials. > > > El 26/06/15 a les 19:48, Bart Schouten ha escrit: > > If you think that's what an average user does, you have a very skewed > > way of an average user. The whole idea of Linux is to provide a > > customization that goes beyond "Oh, do I click on Internet Explorer?" > > How many people using Gnome fall into this "average user" category you > > hold? I would say 2% and after they've used the system for a month > > they're no longer that. > > > > You have a very skewed vision or image of real life, unless you want to > > make Kiosk computers. Anyone who is capable of installing Ubuntu Gnome > > will know what Firefox is. It doesn't take long to get to know what e.g. > > Evolution is, since it sports an email icon. > > > > The initial period of getting to know these applications is very short > > compared to the actual time you ought to be using it. If someone cannot > > install Ubuntu Gnome, you can be expected that they have a person who > > did install it for them and who can introduce them to these > > applications. After all, getting to know firefox and knowing its icon is > > pretty essential to being tutored in using a computer. What if a person > > uses Gnome for three months and someone asks what browser do you use? I > > don't know, it's called Web Browser. That means the learning experience > > of using Firefox is essentially disrupted because its identity is hidden. > > > > It makes no sense at all to name something after a category, I repeat. > > > > And most people who have used the system for three months and would have > > experienced two different browsers, would definitely pick a favourite. > > > > They do care if they know, and using a computer is all about exploration. > > > > I repeat, sorry if I say so, but that "average user" does hardly exist. > > You could call it "novice user" and novices do not remain that. > > > > You should not frustrate a user in learning more. You are treating > > people like children but also children who are too stupid to learn. The > > only thing the system is good for is a Kiosk computer (and perhaps quite > > well). > > > > A novice user cannot install a computer. These are people that ask > > friends for help in Installing Windows. They are too scared to do > > otherwise. > > > > Seriously, you have a skewed image. This target audience does not exist. > > > > For example, most people who have used Windows for a few years (and > > every teen has (almost)) will know what Firefox and Photoshop are. They > > know Instagram, Facebook, they know many apps for smarthphones, they > > know Whatsapp, the only program that doesn't use a distinctive name is > > Messenger. (Facebook Messenger). > > > > These are brand names that get acquired very quickly. They are not > > obstacles. You are blowing up the initial learning period to be a very > > difficult thing, and it is not. > > > > Learning brand names is a natural process and everyone does it > > everywhere all the time. Your cable company is not called "Cable > > Company" because it is not distinctive and does not identify. > > > > How many people do you think have trouble learning whatever its name is > > or what companies there are and what they offer? None. > > > > But naming it "File Manager" and "Web browser" introduces many > > obstacles, while the opposite really has no drawbacks and only > > advantages. It's only in your mind. I'm not sure if you have "asked" any > > "average user". Typically, anyone who is involved with Linux is way > > more advanced than that. Most people I meet do not know what Ubuntu is, > > a few do, the more student minded. These people would never install it, > > but may have someone who wants to install it for them. > > > > Then, that person would be responsible for introducing the person to the > > system. I would not recommend a different system to anyone without > > personally making sure they are introduced. > > > > So all that's left is Kiosk computers, where average or new or unknown > > users get to use a computer that is workable fast without having a > > work-in period. In that case it makes sense. Not for a personal install. > > Not really. > > > > Anyway, these are just my thoughts again. I believe I'm pretty straight > > in this and pretty clear and I believe you are alienated from regular > > people if you believe any otherwise. > > > > Just give it a try and see how good it works. Any regular user can never > > find the program in e.g. a process explorer or overview, pretty much an > > essential feature. So the feature is broken. > > > > You break all kind of things with this and what is the benefit? It is > > none. It is in your mind. Nobody really likes it except people who have > > rationalized it. > > > > Sorry, but... It's really clear as daylight. It makes it a worse system > > by far. The out of the Box Gnome experience is not all that good.... > > > > It is apparently a new concept that was tried and tested as a deviationg > > from the standard and the norm and the accustomed and the regular way of > > doing things in business and in life, and has the deviation really been > > evaluated? I think not. It is just an idea. Nobody really knows if it > > works and for whom, because the people who are advocating it are > > definitely not that category of "average user". > > > > So it makes no sense. This target audience.... it is not you yourself, > > and they don't even exist really. They are different people that are an > > imaginging. Who knows these average users? That are interested in Gnome? > > That know about Gnome? > > > > I don't know any. I know people who barely know how to open the internet > > (a browser) and I would not give them Ubuntu Gnome without support, or > > any form of computer without support really. > > > > I would not give my mother and father a computer without my help, > > essentially. Those of my age, they can all use computers, none > > excepted. In the age range of 30-5, there are no "average users". There > > are only proficient users. So you also only cater to elderly people. > > > > At least, anyone who has gone to school and had to use a computer for > > school knows their way around it. > > > > Reall, really skewed. > > > > My apologies. > > > > > > Quoting Alfredo Hernández <aldomann.desi...@gmail.com>: > > > >> I agree with Julien. Our purpose is to give a pure GNOME experience. The > >> average user doesn't care if they are using Totem or VLC, they want a > >> Video > >> Player and they will most probably have only one video player installed. > >> > >> On 26 June 2015 at 17:33, Julien Olivier <jul...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, sorry, my explanation lacked an important detail: I reckon the > >>> GNOME developers wanted to use generic names for first-party apps > >>> only (and > >>> thus, for one and only one app for each task). Third party apps are > >>> still > >>> displayed using their real name. > >>> > >>> I might be wrong though, or GNOME developers might also have changed > >>> their > >>> strategy since the last time I checked... > >>> > >>> > >>> Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 16:04 +0200, Narcis Garcia a écrit : > >>> > >>> I believe there is a middle point for this: > >>> > >>> "Gedit text editor" > >>> "Nautilus file manager" > >>> "Firefox web browser" > >>> etc. > >>> > >>> If someone names simply "Web browser" to Epiphany, how is named > >>> Firefox?? In a bad names strategy, user could see this in an > >>> applications menu: > >>> Web browser <- This is Firefox (you must know) > >>> Web browser <- This is Mirori (you must know) > >>> Web browser <- This is Icecat (you must know) > >>> ...no sense. > >>> > >>> It's very difficult for casual (or new) users this other extreme in a > >>> bad names strategy: > >>> Sylpheed <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) > >>> Evolution <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) > >>> Geary <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) > >>> > >>> > >>> El 26/06/15 a les 11:13, Julien Olivier ha escrit:> Hi Bart, list,> > > >>> the thing with names is that it's better when they actually *mean*> > >>> something. An experimented user will immediately know that Firefox is > >>> a> web browser or that Evolution is an email program. But normal > >>> users will> have no clue about it :) Some apps use names that provide > >>> clues as to> what the purpose of the app is, like Rhythmbox or Gedit, > >>> but most don't.> > I think the recent trend among GNOME developers is > >>> that the app name is> more like an internal code, not aimed at being > >>> used in the user experience.> > Maybe a good way to fix your problem > >>> would be to have a "Launch in> terminal" entry in the app's dash > >>> icon, next to "New Window" and "Add to> favourites", possibly as a > >>> GNOME Shell extension ?> > Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 10:25 +0200, > >>> Bart Schouten a écrit :>> Quoting Narcis Garcia > >>> <informat...@actiu.net <mailto:informat...@actiu.net > >>> <informat...@actiu.net>>>:>>>> > I agree with Keith Grider in a > >>> subject: " > >>> please name all programs in the>> > UI the same as the cli (...) if > >>> you want to diagnose the problem, you>> > need to grep all over the > >>> internet to find out what the program name is>> > to be able to > >>> launch from the command line to see what errors are occurring">> >>> > >>> > This problem is worse with localized UI.>>>> Yes. It makes no > >>> sense to name something "File Manager" instead of >> "Nautilus" > >>> when Nautilus is a name you can love and a brand name. >> Kubuntu > >>> (KDE) just puts a like subtitle next to the real name in the >> > >>> menu to describe it. I don't think "File Manager" (or whatever) > >>> makes >> much sense and you cannot love it. Only the most mediocre > >>> computer >> users do not know what "file manager" or anything > >>> with a name is and >> some of them don't even know what the button > >>> "web" is supposed to do >> (in a kiosk computer). You can't really > >>> cater to them. Those users >> can't use Linux anyway. People who > >>> have to learn how to use a mouse >> and who cannot make > >>> double-clicks without moving the mouse too much >> (it happens all > >>> too common). I don't think that should be your target >> audience. > >>> A proficient computer user that cannot use a mouse and does >> not > >>> know what a file manager icon is supposed to do -- they can never > >>> >> use linux. They couldn't use Windows. You'd only give them a Mac, > >>> at >> best. I feel it is catering to the lowest common > >>> denominator.>>>> Personally I think Gnome would be at least twice as > >>> good if they got >> rid of those confusing names when there are > >>> good names for those >> programs already.>>>> Just my opinion, as > >>> well.>>>> Bart.>>>> >>> >>> >>> > El 25/06/15 a les 15:44, Keith > >>> Grider ha escrit:>> >> Hi,>> >>>> >> I have been running Gnome > >>> desktop under Ubuntu since 11.04. I did not>> >> like Unity and did > >>> not like the Gnome fallback. Tried Elementary OS for>> >> a while > >>> and came back to Ubuntu Gnome because they are so slow to>> >> > >>> release Freya.>> >>>> >> The new Gnome in 15.04 seems snappier and I > >>> like it. I could care less>> >> about the cutting edge, latest > >>> Gnome, I just want it to run. I am in the>> >> process of upgrading > >>> my computers from 14.04 to 15.04. 2 down and 2 to>> >> go. There are > >>> some kernel improvements in 15.04 which help a couple>> >> issues I > >>> was having with 14.04 (1 is that network manager is somewhat>> >> > >>> broken in 14.04.2 The via_velocity module will not reconnect to the > >>> lan>> >> after suspend and another is with wifi on my laptop.)>> > >>> >>>> >> Stuff that does not work or does not work 'correctly' in > >>> 15.04, IMO:>> >>>> >> 1. I can no longer unload a module at suspend > >>> time. I know this is a>> >> kernel problem and not Gnome, but it > >>> is a problem for me. I used to>> >> be able to do this with > >>> 13.04, but since 12.04, I can no longer get>> >> it to unload > >>> the aic7xxx module before suspending. No matter what I>> >> put > >>> in the |/etc/pm/config.d/modules, it will not unload. As soon as>> > >>> >> I try to use that module, the kernel panics and locks up > >>> the>> >> computer. It is an old card, but runs my scanner just > >>> fine. It used>> >> to work correctly and now it only works after > >>> boot and crashes after>> >> the first suspend resume cycle. I > >>> can do it by hand and can also>> >> blacklist it so I cna load > >>> it when I need it, but it should be able>> >> to be automated, > >>> this is a regression.>> >> |>> >> 2. ||The Gnome login screen > >>> needs a suspend time out. As it is, I have>> >> my users set > >>> auto suspend after 30 minutes. It would be nice if I>> >> could > >>> set that for The Gnome login screen as well via the Gnome UI>> > >>> >> somehow. It has been this way for a while and it is a > >>> regression, IMO.>> >> 3. The Gnome login screen does not have a > >>> suspend option. All I can do>> >> is shut down or reboot from > >>> the login screen.>> >> 4. The openjdk-*-jre install no longer has a > >>> .desktop file for right>> >> clicking and launching *.jar files > >>> in Nautilus, it must be created>> >> by hand to run these > >>> files.>> >> 5. Please, please, please name all programs in the UI > >>> the same as the>> >> cli... Please. It is tough to click and try > >>> to launch something in>> >> the UI, have nothing happen then if > >>> you want to diagnose the>> >> problem, you need to grep all over > >>> the internet to find out what the>> >> program name is to be > >>> able to launch from the command line to see>> >> what errors > >>> are occurring. I do not have a specific example right>> >> now, > >>> but could find one if you need. I think one of them is 'files'.>> > >>> >> Just call it 'nautilus'.>> >>>> >> Keep up the good work.>> > >>> >>>> >> Keith>> >>>> >>>> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:19 PM, > >>> Ali/amjjawad <amjja...@gnome.org <mailto:amjja...@gnome.org > >>> <amjja...@gnome.org>>>> >> <mailto:amjja...@gnome.org > >>> <amjja...@gnome.org>>> wrote:>> >>>> >> Dear everyone,>> >>>> > >>> >> Before we start the planning for this cycle (Wily Werewolf - > >>> 15.04),>> >> I'd like to run this survey before anything else:>> > >>> >>>> >> https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time/>> >>>> >> It > >>> would be very important for me and everyone else to understand>> > >>> >> what we have done, what we are doing and what we are suppose > >>> to do>> >> in the future. Above all, we do need to understand > >>> what *OUR USERS*>> >> think :)>> >>>> >> I am having very > >>> limited time to spend so if the survey is bad or>> >> lack some > >>> questions, etc .. please keep in mind that this is what my>> >> > >>> time allowed me to do. I think I did my best and I'd like to>> > >>> >> apologize in advance for any inconvenience.>> >>>> >> You > >>> can *ALWAYS* write to us and send your feedback here, on this>> > >>> >> mailing list:>> >> > >>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ContactUs>> >>>> >>>> >> > >>> and/or *FEEL FREE to contact me* :)>> >>>> >>>> >> The survey > >>> should *NOT* take more than _*3 minutes*_ from your time.>> >>>> >> > >>> *Here is the direct link:*>> >> > >>> http://goo.gl/forms/sXdsxPIkfZ>> >>>> >> You can only answer it > >>> ONE time so please, make sure to read the>> >> questions > >>> carefully ;)>> >>>> >> Thank you so much!>> >>>> >> -->> >> > >>> Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us.">> >>>> > >>> >> Best Regards,>> >> Ali/amjjawad > >>> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad>>> >>>> >> > >>> *http://kibo.computer* - http://torios.net - Ubuntu GNOME>> >> > >>> <http://ubuntugnome.org/>>> >>>> >> -->> >> Ubuntu-GNOME > >>> mailing list>> >> Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com > >>> <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com > >>> <Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com>> > >>> <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com > >>> <Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com>>>> >> Modify settings or > >>> unsubscribe at:>> >> > >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>> >>>> >>>> > >>> >>>> >>>> >>> > -->> > Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list>> > > >>> Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com > >>> <Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com>>>> > Modify settings or unsubscribe > >>> at: >> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list > >>> Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com > >>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list > Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome >
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