> >At least, anyone who has gone to school and had to use a computer for >school knows their way around it. >
That might be the main point. Targetting people that have not? http://liliputing.com/2015/04/endless-computers-a-169-pc-and-operating-system-for-developing-markets-crowdfunding.html it might be that not always gnome users are a niche within a niche (ubuntu gnome being a niche in ubuntu and ubuntu being a niche in Gnu/Linux and Gnu/Linux a niche within computer users and computer users within the world population that might or might not have access to computers) I do agree people are more clever than they get credit for. But if someone comes to the mailing list saying that their 'web' app is not Working properly we can assume a) it's a novice user and b) it is the default web app? Unless when doing a Google web search it offers to install chrome when searching in ubuntu gnome as well? That would be the only case I can imagine a novice having two web browsers? El 26 de junio de 2015 18:48:47 GMT+01:00, Bart Schouten <mailing-l...@bart.ahum.nl> escribió: >If you think that's what an average user does, you have a very skewed >way of an average user. The whole idea of Linux is to provide a >customization that goes beyond "Oh, do I click on Internet Explorer?" >How many people using Gnome fall into this "average user" category you > >hold? I would say 2% and after they've used the system for a month >they're no longer that. > >You have a very skewed vision or image of real life, unless you want >to make Kiosk computers. Anyone who is capable of installing Ubuntu >Gnome will know what Firefox is. It doesn't take long to get to know >what e.g. Evolution is, since it sports an email icon. > >The initial period of getting to know these applications is very short > >compared to the actual time you ought to be using it. If someone >cannot install Ubuntu Gnome, you can be expected that they have a >person who did install it for them and who can introduce them to these > >applications. After all, getting to know firefox and knowing its icon >is pretty essential to being tutored in using a computer. What if a >person uses Gnome for three months and someone asks what browser do >you use? I don't know, it's called Web Browser. That means the >learning experience of using Firefox is essentially disrupted because >its identity is hidden. > >It makes no sense at all to name something after a category, I repeat. > >And most people who have used the system for three months and would >have experienced two different browsers, would definitely pick a >favourite. > >They do care if they know, and using a computer is all about >exploration. > >I repeat, sorry if I say so, but that "average user" does hardly >exist. You could call it "novice user" and novices do not remain that. > >You should not frustrate a user in learning more. You are treating >people like children but also children who are too stupid to learn. >The only thing the system is good for is a Kiosk computer (and perhaps > >quite well). > >A novice user cannot install a computer. These are people that ask >friends for help in Installing Windows. They are too scared to do >otherwise. > >Seriously, you have a skewed image. This target audience does not >exist. > >For example, most people who have used Windows for a few years (and >every teen has (almost)) will know what Firefox and Photoshop are. >They know Instagram, Facebook, they know many apps for smarthphones, >they know Whatsapp, the only program that doesn't use a distinctive >name is Messenger. (Facebook Messenger). > >These are brand names that get acquired very quickly. They are not >obstacles. You are blowing up the initial learning period to be a very > >difficult thing, and it is not. > >Learning brand names is a natural process and everyone does it >everywhere all the time. Your cable company is not called "Cable >Company" because it is not distinctive and does not identify. > >How many people do you think have trouble learning whatever its name >is or what companies there are and what they offer? None. > >But naming it "File Manager" and "Web browser" introduces many >obstacles, while the opposite really has no drawbacks and only >advantages. It's only in your mind. I'm not sure if you have "asked" >any "average user". Typically, anyone who is involved with Linux is >way more advanced than that. Most people I meet do not know what >Ubuntu is, a few do, the more student minded. These people would never > >install it, but may have someone who wants to install it for them. > >Then, that person would be responsible for introducing the person to >the system. I would not recommend a different system to anyone >without personally making sure they are introduced. > >So all that's left is Kiosk computers, where average or new or unknown > >users get to use a computer that is workable fast without having a >work-in period. In that case it makes sense. Not for a personal >install. Not really. > >Anyway, these are just my thoughts again. I believe I'm pretty >straight in this and pretty clear and I believe you are alienated from > >regular people if you believe any otherwise. > >Just give it a try and see how good it works. Any regular user can >never find the program in e.g. a process explorer or overview, pretty >much an essential feature. So the feature is broken. > >You break all kind of things with this and what is the benefit? It is >none. It is in your mind. Nobody really likes it except people who >have rationalized it. > >Sorry, but... It's really clear as daylight. It makes it a worse >system by far. The out of the Box Gnome experience is not all that >good.... > >It is apparently a new concept that was tried and tested as a >deviationg from the standard and the norm and the accustomed and the >regular way of doing things in business and in life, and has the >deviation really been evaluated? I think not. It is just an idea. >Nobody really knows if it works and for whom, because the people who >are advocating it are definitely not that category of "average user". > >So it makes no sense. This target audience.... it is not you yourself, > >and they don't even exist really. They are different people that are >an imaginging. Who knows these average users? That are interested in >Gnome? That know about Gnome? > >I don't know any. I know people who barely know how to open the >internet (a browser) and I would not give them Ubuntu Gnome without >support, or any form of computer without support really. > >I would not give my mother and father a computer without my help, >essentially. Those of my age, they can all use computers, none >excepted. In the age range of 30-5, there are no "average users". >There are only proficient users. So you also only cater to elderly >people. > >At least, anyone who has gone to school and had to use a computer for >school knows their way around it. > >Reall, really skewed. > >My apologies. > > >Quoting Alfredo Hernández <aldomann.desi...@gmail.com>: > >> I agree with Julien. Our purpose is to give a pure GNOME experience. >The >> average user doesn't care if they are using Totem or VLC, they want a >Video >> Player and they will most probably have only one video player >installed. >> >> On 26 June 2015 at 17:33, Julien Olivier <jul...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes, sorry, my explanation lacked an important detail: I reckon the >>> GNOME developers wanted to use generic names for first-party apps >only (and >>> thus, for one and only one app for each task). Third party apps are >still >>> displayed using their real name. >>> >>> I might be wrong though, or GNOME developers might also have changed >their >>> strategy since the last time I checked... >>> >>> >>> Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 16:04 +0200, Narcis Garcia a écrit : >>> >>> I believe there is a middle point for this: >>> >>> "Gedit text editor" >>> "Nautilus file manager" >>> "Firefox web browser" >>> etc. >>> >>> If someone names simply "Web browser" to Epiphany, how is named >>> Firefox?? In a bad names strategy, user could see this in an >>> applications menu: >>> Web browser <- This is Firefox (you must know) >>> Web browser <- This is Mirori (you must know) >>> Web browser <- This is Icecat (you must know) >>> ...no sense. >>> >>> It's very difficult for casual (or new) users this other extreme in >a >>> bad names strategy: >>> Sylpheed <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) >>> Evolution <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) >>> Geary <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) >>> >>> >>> El 26/06/15 a les 11:13, Julien Olivier ha escrit:> Hi Bart, list,> > >>> > the thing with names is that it's better when they actually >>> *mean*> something. An experimented user will immediately know that >>> Firefox is a> web browser or that Evolution is an email program. >>> But normal users will> have no clue about it :) Some apps use names > >>> that provide clues as to> what the purpose of the app is, like >>> Rhythmbox or Gedit, but most don't.> > I think the recent trend >>> among GNOME developers is that the app name is> more like an >>> internal code, not aimed at being used in the user experience.> > >>> Maybe a good way to fix your problem would be to have a "Launch in> > >>> terminal" entry in the app's dash icon, next to "New Window" and >>> "Add to> favourites", possibly as a GNOME Shell extension ?> > Le >>> vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 10:25 +0200, Bart Schouten a écrit :>> >>> Quoting Narcis Garcia <informat...@actiu.net >>> <mailto:informat...@actiu.net <informat...@actiu.net>>>:>>>> > I >>> agree with Keith Grider in a subject: " >>> please name all programs in the>> > UI the same as the cli (...) if > >>> you want to diagnose the problem, you>> > need to grep all over >>> the internet to find out what the program name is>> > to be able >>> to launch from the command line to see what errors are >>> occurring">> >>> > This problem is worse with localized UI.>>>> >>> Yes. It makes no sense to name something "File Manager" instead >>> of >> "Nautilus" when Nautilus is a name you can love and a brand > >>> name. >> Kubuntu (KDE) just puts a like subtitle next to the real > >>> name in the >> menu to describe it. I don't think "File Manager" >>> (or whatever) makes >> much sense and you cannot love it. Only >>> the most mediocre computer >> users do not know what "file >>> manager" or anything with a name is and >> some of them don't >>> even know what the button "web" is supposed to do >> (in a kiosk >>> computer). You can't really cater to them. Those users >> can't >>> use Linux anyway. People who have to learn how to use a mouse >> >>> and who cannot make double-clicks without moving the mouse too >>> much >> (it happens all too common). I don't think that should be > >>> your target >> audience. A proficient computer user that cannot >>> use a mouse and does >> not know what a file manager icon is >>> supposed to do -- they can never >> use linux. They couldn't use >>> Windows. You'd only give them a Mac, at >> best. I feel it is >>> catering to the lowest common denominator.>>>> Personally I think >>> Gnome would be at least twice as good if they got >> rid of those > >>> confusing names when there are good names for those >> programs >>> already.>>>> Just my opinion, as well.>>>> Bart.>>>> >>> >>> >>> > > >>> El 25/06/15 a les 15:44, Keith Grider ha escrit:>> >> Hi,>> >>>> >>> >> I have been running Gnome desktop under Ubuntu since 11.04. I >>> did not>> >> like Unity and did not like the Gnome fallback. Tried > >>> Elementary OS for>> >> a while and came back to Ubuntu Gnome >>> because they are so slow to>> >> release Freya.>> >>>> >> The new >>> Gnome in 15.04 seems snappier and I like it. I could care less>> >>> >> about the cutting edge, latest Gnome, I just want it to run. I >>> am in the>> >> process of upgrading my computers from 14.04 to >>> 15.04. 2 down and 2 to>> >> go. There are some kernel improvements > >>> in 15.04 which help a couple>> >> issues I was having with 14.04 >>> (1 is that network manager is somewhat>> >> broken in 14.04.2 The >>> via_velocity module will not reconnect to the lan>> >> after >>> suspend and another is with wifi on my laptop.)>> >>>> >> Stuff >>> that does not work or does not work 'correctly' in 15.04, IMO:>> >>> >>>> >> 1. I can no longer unload a module at suspend time. I >>> know this is a>> >> kernel problem and not Gnome, but it is a >>> problem for me. I used to>> >> be able to do this with 13.04, >>> but since 12.04, I can no longer get>> >> it to unload the >>> aic7xxx module before suspending. No matter what I>> >> put in > >>> the |/etc/pm/config.d/modules, it will not unload. As soon as>> >> > >>> I try to use that module, the kernel panics and locks up the>> > >>> >> computer. It is an old card, but runs my scanner just fine. > >>> It used>> >> to work correctly and now it only works after >>> boot and crashes after>> >> the first suspend resume cycle. I >>> can do it by hand and can also>> >> blacklist it so I cna load > >>> it when I need it, but it should be able>> >> to be automated, > >>> this is a regression.>> >> |>> >> 2. ||The Gnome login screen > >>> needs a suspend time out. As it is, I have>> >> my users set >>> auto suspend after 30 minutes. It would be nice if I>> >> >>> could set that for The Gnome login screen as well via the Gnome >>> UI>> >> somehow. It has been this way for a while and it is a >>> regression, IMO.>> >> 3. The Gnome login screen does not have a >>> suspend option. All I can do>> >> is shut down or reboot from >>> the login screen.>> >> 4. The openjdk-*-jre install no longer has > >>> a .desktop file for right>> >> clicking and launching *.jar >>> files in Nautilus, it must be created>> >> by hand to run >>> these files.>> >> 5. Please, please, please name all programs in >>> the UI the same as the>> >> cli... Please. It is tough to >>> click and try to launch something in>> >> the UI, have nothing > >>> happen then if you want to diagnose the>> >> problem, you need > >>> to grep all over the internet to find out what the>> >> >>> program name is to be able to launch from the command line to >>> see>> >> what errors are occurring. I do not have a specific >>> example right>> >> now, but could find one if you need. I >>> think one of them is 'files'.>> >> Just call it 'nautilus'.>> >>> >>>> >> Keep up the good work.>> >>>> >> Keith>> >>>> >>>> >> On >>> Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Ali/amjjawad <amjja...@gnome.org >>> <mailto:amjja...@gnome.org <amjja...@gnome.org>>>> >> >>> <mailto:amjja...@gnome.org <amjja...@gnome.org>>> wrote:>> >>>> >> > >>> Dear everyone,>> >>>> >> Before we start the planning for >>> this cycle (Wily Werewolf - 15.04),>> >> I'd like to run this >>> survey before anything else:>> >>>> >> >>> https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time/>> >>>> >> It would be >>> very important for me and everyone else to understand>> >> >>> what we have done, what we are doing and what we are suppose to >>> do>> >> in the future. Above all, we do need to understand >>> what *OUR USERS*>> >> think :)>> >>>> >> I am having very >>> limited time to spend so if the survey is bad or>> >> lack >>> some questions, etc .. please keep in mind that this is what my>> >>> >> time allowed me to do. I think I did my best and I'd like >>> to>> >> apologize in advance for any inconvenience.>> >>>> >> > >>> You can *ALWAYS* write to us and send your feedback here, on >>> this>> >> mailing list:>> >> >>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ContactUs>> >>>> >>>> >> >>> and/or *FEEL FREE to contact me* :)>> >>>> >>>> >> The survey >>> should *NOT* take more than _*3 minutes*_ from your time.>> >>>> >> > >>> *Here is the direct link:*>> >> >>> http://goo.gl/forms/sXdsxPIkfZ>> >>>> >> You can only answer it > >>> ONE time so please, make sure to read the>> >> questions >>> carefully ;)>> >>>> >> Thank you so much!>> >>>> >> -->> >> > >>> Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us.">> >>>> >>> >> Best Regards,>> >> Ali/amjjawad >>> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad>>> >>>> >> >>> *http://kibo.computer* - http://torios.net - Ubuntu GNOME>> >> > >>> <http://ubuntugnome.org/>>> >>>> >> -->> >> Ubuntu-GNOME >>> mailing list>> >> Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com >>> <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com >>> <Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com>> >>> <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com >>> <Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com>>>> >> Modify settings or >>> unsubscribe at:>> >> >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>> >>>> >>>> > >>> >>>> >>>> >>> > -->> > Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list>> > >>> Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com > >>> <Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com>>>> > Modify settings or >>> unsubscribe at: >> > >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list >>> Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com >>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome >>> >>> >> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list Ubuntu-GNOME@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome
