I've enjoyed the answers thus far, but I do want to ask a followup question. I am currently attending University of Phoenix and *have *found it to be an expensive self education. Would my time and money be better placed in putting together a portfolio of projects that show what I already know as well as continue with self teaching? (I live in Price and it would take a while to get up to UVU or anywhere that has a computer science or software engineering degree)
Thanks again, everyone! On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Mac Newbold <[email protected]> wrote: > I would second a lot of what Aleksei said, too. Some kind of test, whether > a short project, or some interview questions where they write code, or at > least some kind of code review of some work in their portfolio, is worth > its weight in gold. I've been surprised at people who manage to get 10+ > years of experience in the field, and then you ask them some relatively > easy things and they fail miserably. On the other hand, I've also seen > people with no formal training at all who do great in the interview, and > even better on the job. > > I think you're absolutely right about employers who have a hard and fast > rule about requiring degrees. Especially in our field, a degree does not > have a really strong correlation to ability to succeed in any particular > job. I've found that since so few universities really have a robust course > offering in web development, many of the skills I care about most aren't > even on the curriculum. That said, often a CS (or related) degree, at least > from the right schools, can really broaden a candiates perspective and help > them know how their piece of the puzzle will interact with all the other > components around it, which can definitely be a valuable asset. But the > proof is in the pudding, as Aleksei explains so well. > > Thanks, > Mac > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Alexandros Nipirakis > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > I have no idea how this factors in, but I will give my 0.02 in case it is > > at all useful to anyone. (I am new to the community, and this is > probably > > a good place to introduce myself at least a little while adding my voice > to > > the conversation ;) ). > > > > I am an IT Manager for a local company and have been in IT for about 15 > > years (ever since high school, where i actually worked in the IT > department > > of my school system as an assistant to our net admin for pay). I have > > worked for my current company for about ten years, and moved up from a > > simple programmer to my current position. > > > > I do not (currently) have a BS degree. > > > > My only education is with ITT Tech where I got my Associates Degree in > > "Applied Science with an Emphasis on Computer Network Systems" in 2004. > > > > With that said, I used to mentor a FRC team (US FIRST team 1557 in > Eustis, > > FL), and any student that even mentioned that they were thinking about > > going to ITT, I would tell them to avoid it at all costs. Yes, there > are > > a FEW people like me that had some experience before going, safely got > > through learning almost nothing new, getting a piece of paper and making > > somewhat good money afterwards. Then, there are the vast majority (I > would > > call it 70%, but I am probably underestimating the problem) that leave > with > > no experience or knowledge and a $50,000 school debt and working at a 12 > > dollar an hour help desk position with little (if any) hope for growth. > > > > Many of the people I went to school with couldn't manage a network for > > anything, and still couldn't after the two years we were in school. I > > haven't kept up with any of them (this was two moves ago back in Detroit, > > and I graduated in 2004 at that), but I would guess most of them are not > > doing anything having to do with their degree. Or, they are part of that > > lie of a statistic that ITT will throw out there for someone working as a > > cashier at Best Buy but calling it in the "IT industry." > > > > I cringe when I see one of their commercials on TV, and thankfully I have > > never been asked to be on one of them (though I did speak at our > > commencement for the IT program). > > > > I have never gone to Phoenix or Devry, but I used to work with a group of > > people who graduated from Devry around the time I graduated from ITT. > They > > were good - and they all thought very highly of Devry (my guess is about > > the same for U of Phoenix, and I have talked to people who went there > too, > > with similar experiences). > > > > Fast forward to about two years ago, I was hiring for a report writer. > My > > needs were pretty simple, you had to be able to operate in SQL server, > know > > something about programming, and generally be a "technical" person (one > of > > my questions was "have you ever tried to program your cell phone" just to > > see if the person was a "tinkerer"). > > > > Everyone from Devry failed miserably. Most of them couldn't even tell me > > how you would get data from a table (much like James's question), or even > > be able to log in to Management Studio (keep in mind, this was after I > > warned each person what they were expected to do). > > > > FWIW, I also had a candidate from a public university (cannot remember > > which one) who also failed miserably, but his degree was about 20 years > > old. > > > > For myself, I am currently going to Western Governors University. I need > > the piece of paper, and WGU's way of doing things works great for my > > current schedule (you take tests whenever the test center allows you to, > > everything is online, and you don't have a set schedule). The school is > > regionally and nationally accredited (FWIW), and I have found that even > > with my extensive background in IT, that some of the classes are actually > > providing me with new information. I would certainly suggest it for > anyone > > who is thinking about going to a for profit college because of time > > restrictions if for no other reason than it is accredited and relatively > > cheap (a year costs about $6,000.00 which you can't touch at either Devry > > or Phoenix and you can't even take three classes at ITT for that). > > > > Given my expereince at WGU, I would certainly not hold it against someone > > if they graduated from there, but I wouldn't hire them just because of it > > either. > > > > If I were in the market to hire a developer, I would make them actually > > program. Anyone who hires someone based on a college degree or > experience > > alone deserves to end up with someone who doesn't know how to program. > The > > caveat being that if someone actually has code in the wild and uses that > as > > part of their interview I would say that is a good indicator, but I would > > still be a huge proponent of testing as part of the hiring process. > > > > I know that there are plenty of people who probably wouldn't hire me > right > > now because I don't have a bachelor's degree. > > > > I am sure that there are some who might not even after I graduate from > WGU. > > > > > > That's their decision, and IMHO their loss. > > > > A degree doesn't mean jack if you can't program or actually do what it > says > > on the piece of paper, and in my experience plenty of people who graduate > > from notable universities (a person I used to know who had an advanced > > degree from a public university comes to mind) who still can't program, > or > > who write programs that are absolutely rubbish and not worth the bits > they > > are stored in. There are also plenty of programmers who are reasonably > > good at writing good code, but who know almost nothing about IT in > general, > > but that's a completely different subject all together ;). > > > > I have always looked at a degree as a "I sat through four years of crap" > > license. It basically means you can start and finish something, which > > isn't nothing but it isn't everything. > > > > Again, my 0.02. I may be an anomaly, but I wouldn't not hire someone > > because they didn't go to a notable university, but (having been burned > in > > the not so recent past) I also don't hire people based on what they say > > they can do, or where they sat for four years. > > > > I hire people who can actually do what they say they can do. In other > > words, actions speak louder than words. > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > Aleksei > > > > > > On 24 March 2014 14:07, James Noble <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 9:18 AM, Kevin Jensen <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I have a quick question. For those that hire, how important is the > > > > institution that a prospective employee received his or her degree? > By > > > that > > > > I mean does an applicant that received a BS from the University of > Utah > > > > seem more desirable than someone who received their degree from > > > University > > > > of Phoenix? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have done some hiring and the worst candidates I had were graduates > > from > > > the University of Phoenix. I don't want to say that everyone that goes > > > there can't program but that is my experience. I asked two questions > to > > a > > > couple of candidates. I asked them to write a select statement from a > > > table to get all data from the table. I also asked them to write a > loop > > > statement. I am not sure why I asked them to do this because I don't > > > normally but the candidates I asked this were unable to do it. I got > > the > > > feeling that for profit colleges were more interested in passing > someone > > > than teaching them. > > > > > > If you are looking for where to go personally then I agree with what > has > > > already been said. Work experience trumps school names. When I went > to > > > school some students were getting a BS because their work required it > to > > > advance in the company. If that is the case then just look at the cost > > of > > > the school compared with the time to graduate and the expected salary > > bump. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > > > -- > Mac Newbold > [email protected] > 801-694-6334 > <http://www.codegreene.com> > > _______________________________________________ > > UPHPU mailing list > [email protected] > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > _______________________________________________ UPHPU mailing list [email protected] http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
