Meant to send this to the list - my bad :( Kind Regards,
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Alexandros Nipirakis <[email protected]> Date: 24 March 2014 16:50 Subject: Re: [UPHPU] School Credibility To: Aaron Luman <[email protected]> I think it would depend on how much practical experience you have. If you have never programmed before and are just starting out (I have never attended a Utah PHP Group meeting so I have never had the pleasure to meet you - or anyone else from this group) then I would say that a place like University of Phoenix isn't going to help you very much. WGU may be better - but requires more time discipline than something more structured than University of Phoenix - but does give you (again - IMHO) a very rounded view of IT - but certainly isn't like getting a CS degree from a full on college. I think in any case - what everyone is saying is basically the degree is somewhat important, but more important is your ability to do things. If I were just starting out again, I am not sure if I would go back and go to a real college or take the "in the trenches" path that i took. I think that Richard was suggesting something along those lines (IE - find a job that you are qualified for and do it, gain experience and move up) and I would generally say that this is probably more beneficial than a degree which may not be widely respected. That said - everyone is different. What I can say is that any place with high default rates should be ESPECIALLY avoided by those who have not yet worked in the field that they are going to school for. Kind Regards - Aleksei On 24 March 2014 16:41, Aaron Luman <[email protected]> wrote: > In my (not so humble) opinion, with all of the free/inexpensive educational > materials available, the primary benefit to attending a university is for > the proximity to people with more knowledge and better connections than > yourself. In my opinion, UoP does not really provide that. Your online > professors are unlikely to have employment connections in your area, and > even if they did, how well have you gotten to know them? Well enough that > they will put you in front of a potential employer? > > Depending on what you hope to do when you complete your education and where > your programming skills currently are, there are a LOT of good places to > improve them for free. Stanford, Yale, MIT, Carnegie Mellon (just to name a > few) post a wide range of their courses online. They are recordings of > previous sessions of popular courses and include homework and test > materials. Occasionally, Stanford even offers a course 100% for free that > gives you access to the professor and teaching assistants. > Opencourseware.org is a good place to see schools that offer programs and > some of their course offerings. > > Also, UoP has a reputation for having a very high student loan default rate > (higher than the graduation rate). If you contact your fin advisor and let > them know that you need to take a break from classes they will likely be > very eager to make arrangements such that you don't add to their terrible > numbers. > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Kevin Jensen <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > I've enjoyed the answers thus far, but I do want to ask a followup > > question. I am currently attending University of Phoenix and *have *found > > it to be an expensive self education. Would my time and money be better > > placed in putting together a portfolio of projects that show what I > already > > know as well as continue with self teaching? (I live in Price and it > would > > take a while to get up to UVU or anywhere that has a computer science or > > software engineering degree) > > > > Thanks again, everyone! > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Mac Newbold <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I would second a lot of what Aleksei said, too. Some kind of test, > > whether > > > a short project, or some interview questions where they write code, or > at > > > least some kind of code review of some work in their portfolio, is > worth > > > its weight in gold. I've been surprised at people who manage to get 10+ > > > years of experience in the field, and then you ask them some relatively > > > easy things and they fail miserably. On the other hand, I've also seen > > > people with no formal training at all who do great in the interview, > and > > > even better on the job. > > > > > > I think you're absolutely right about employers who have a hard and > fast > > > rule about requiring degrees. Especially in our field, a degree does > not > > > have a really strong correlation to ability to succeed in any > particular > > > job. I've found that since so few universities really have a robust > > course > > > offering in web development, many of the skills I care about most > aren't > > > even on the curriculum. That said, often a CS (or related) degree, at > > least > > > from the right schools, can really broaden a candiates perspective and > > help > > > them know how their piece of the puzzle will interact with all the > other > > > components around it, which can definitely be a valuable asset. But the > > > proof is in the pudding, as Aleksei explains so well. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Mac > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Alexandros Nipirakis > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > I have no idea how this factors in, but I will give my 0.02 in case > it > > is > > > > at all useful to anyone. (I am new to the community, and this is > > > probably > > > > a good place to introduce myself at least a little while adding my > > voice > > > to > > > > the conversation ;) ). > > > > > > > > I am an IT Manager for a local company and have been in IT for about > 15 > > > > years (ever since high school, where i actually worked in the IT > > > department > > > > of my school system as an assistant to our net admin for pay). I > have > > > > worked for my current company for about ten years, and moved up from > a > > > > simple programmer to my current position. > > > > > > > > I do not (currently) have a BS degree. > > > > > > > > My only education is with ITT Tech where I got my Associates Degree > in > > > > "Applied Science with an Emphasis on Computer Network Systems" in > 2004. > > > > > > > > With that said, I used to mentor a FRC team (US FIRST team 1557 in > > > Eustis, > > > > FL), and any student that even mentioned that they were thinking > about > > > > going to ITT, I would tell them to avoid it at all costs. Yes, > there > > > are > > > > a FEW people like me that had some experience before going, safely > got > > > > through learning almost nothing new, getting a piece of paper and > > making > > > > somewhat good money afterwards. Then, there are the vast majority (I > > > would > > > > call it 70%, but I am probably underestimating the problem) that > leave > > > with > > > > no experience or knowledge and a $50,000 school debt and working at a > > 12 > > > > dollar an hour help desk position with little (if any) hope for > growth. > > > > > > > > Many of the people I went to school with couldn't manage a network > for > > > > anything, and still couldn't after the two years we were in school. > I > > > > haven't kept up with any of them (this was two moves ago back in > > Detroit, > > > > and I graduated in 2004 at that), but I would guess most of them are > > not > > > > doing anything having to do with their degree. Or, they are part of > > that > > > > lie of a statistic that ITT will throw out there for someone working > > as a > > > > cashier at Best Buy but calling it in the "IT industry." > > > > > > > > I cringe when I see one of their commercials on TV, and thankfully I > > have > > > > never been asked to be on one of them (though I did speak at our > > > > commencement for the IT program). > > > > > > > > I have never gone to Phoenix or Devry, but I used to work with a > group > > of > > > > people who graduated from Devry around the time I graduated from ITT. > > > They > > > > were good - and they all thought very highly of Devry (my guess is > > about > > > > the same for U of Phoenix, and I have talked to people who went there > > > too, > > > > with similar experiences). > > > > > > > > Fast forward to about two years ago, I was hiring for a report > writer. > > > My > > > > needs were pretty simple, you had to be able to operate in SQL > server, > > > know > > > > something about programming, and generally be a "technical" person > (one > > > of > > > > my questions was "have you ever tried to program your cell phone" > just > > to > > > > see if the person was a "tinkerer"). > > > > > > > > Everyone from Devry failed miserably. Most of them couldn't even > tell > > me > > > > how you would get data from a table (much like James's question), or > > even > > > > be able to log in to Management Studio (keep in mind, this was after > I > > > > warned each person what they were expected to do). > > > > > > > > FWIW, I also had a candidate from a public university (cannot > remember > > > > which one) who also failed miserably, but his degree was about 20 > years > > > > old. > > > > > > > > For myself, I am currently going to Western Governors University. I > > need > > > > the piece of paper, and WGU's way of doing things works great for my > > > > current schedule (you take tests whenever the test center allows you > > to, > > > > everything is online, and you don't have a set schedule). The school > > is > > > > regionally and nationally accredited (FWIW), and I have found that > even > > > > with my extensive background in IT, that some of the classes are > > actually > > > > providing me with new information. I would certainly suggest it for > > > anyone > > > > who is thinking about going to a for profit college because of time > > > > restrictions if for no other reason than it is accredited and > > relatively > > > > cheap (a year costs about $6,000.00 which you can't touch at either > > Devry > > > > or Phoenix and you can't even take three classes at ITT for that). > > > > > > > > Given my expereince at WGU, I would certainly not hold it against > > someone > > > > if they graduated from there, but I wouldn't hire them just because > of > > it > > > > either. > > > > > > > > If I were in the market to hire a developer, I would make them > actually > > > > program. Anyone who hires someone based on a college degree or > > > experience > > > > alone deserves to end up with someone who doesn't know how to > program. > > > The > > > > caveat being that if someone actually has code in the wild and uses > > that > > > as > > > > part of their interview I would say that is a good indicator, but I > > would > > > > still be a huge proponent of testing as part of the hiring process. > > > > > > > > I know that there are plenty of people who probably wouldn't hire me > > > right > > > > now because I don't have a bachelor's degree. > > > > > > > > I am sure that there are some who might not even after I graduate > from > > > WGU. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's their decision, and IMHO their loss. > > > > > > > > A degree doesn't mean jack if you can't program or actually do what > it > > > says > > > > on the piece of paper, and in my experience plenty of people who > > graduate > > > > from notable universities (a person I used to know who had an > advanced > > > > degree from a public university comes to mind) who still can't > program, > > > or > > > > who write programs that are absolutely rubbish and not worth the bits > > > they > > > > are stored in. There are also plenty of programmers who are > > reasonably > > > > good at writing good code, but who know almost nothing about IT in > > > general, > > > > but that's a completely different subject all together ;). > > > > > > > > I have always looked at a degree as a "I sat through four years of > > crap" > > > > license. It basically means you can start and finish something, > which > > > > isn't nothing but it isn't everything. > > > > > > > > Again, my 0.02. I may be an anomaly, but I wouldn't not hire someone > > > > because they didn't go to a notable university, but (having been > burned > > > in > > > > the not so recent past) I also don't hire people based on what they > say > > > > they can do, or where they sat for four years. > > > > > > > > I hire people who can actually do what they say they can do. In > other > > > > words, actions speak louder than words. > > > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > > > > > Aleksei > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 March 2014 14:07, James Noble <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 9:18 AM, Kevin Jensen < > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I have a quick question. For those that hire, how important is > the > > > > > > institution that a prospective employee received his or her > degree? > > > By > > > > > that > > > > > > I mean does an applicant that received a BS from the University > of > > > Utah > > > > > > seem more desirable than someone who received their degree from > > > > > University > > > > > > of Phoenix? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have done some hiring and the worst candidates I had were > graduates > > > > from > > > > > the University of Phoenix. I don't want to say that everyone that > > goes > > > > > there can't program but that is my experience. I asked two > questions > > > to > > > > a > > > > > couple of candidates. I asked them to write a select statement > from > > a > > > > > table to get all data from the table. I also asked them to write a > > > loop > > > > > statement. I am not sure why I asked them to do this because I > don't > > > > > normally but the candidates I asked this were unable to do it. I > > got > > > > the > > > > > feeling that for profit colleges were more interested in passing > > > someone > > > > > than teaching them. > > > > > > > > > > If you are looking for where to go personally then I agree with > what > > > has > > > > > already been said. Work experience trumps school names. When I > went > > > to > > > > > school some students were getting a BS because their work required > it > > > to > > > > > advance in the company. If that is the case then just look at the > > cost > > > > of > > > > > the school compared with the time to graduate and the expected > salary > > > > bump. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > > > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Mac Newbold > > > [email protected] > > > 801-694-6334 > > > <http://www.codegreene.com> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UPHPU mailing list > [email protected] > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > _______________________________________________ UPHPU mailing list [email protected] http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
