Thanks all for the valuable feedback. It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs. - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what people should / should not do. - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that also happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, we may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users, due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability and searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of them seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments. - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers with instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc. (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David mentioned.) It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are now guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate questions on MLs. - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community. We have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't do deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really excited about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users than between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and solving problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not proactively joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active compared to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of interaction experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked & answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such success to the global English-speaking community. Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. Thank you~ Xintong Song [1] https://zapier.com/ On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> wrote: > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc. > So I think slack can be worth trying. > > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and > forth, slack communication will be more effective. > > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). > > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <dander...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > I have mixed feelings about this. > > > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. > > > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise takes > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to do > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help from > those who are already actively providing support on the existing > communication channels might just lead to burnout. > > > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going on. > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when a > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. > > > > David > > > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. > >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised > once a while indicates lasting interests. > >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public > record at all. > >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <mart...@ververica.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi everyone, > >>> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see > it as a potential option to create a more active community. > >>> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of > community rules. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Martijn > >>> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > >>> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pnowoj...@apache.org> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Xintong, > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works > great as > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not > searchable > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the > result > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design > doc. > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, > and > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the > previous > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > >>>> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the > users. > >>>> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, > stackoverflow. > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest > at top) > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much > >>>> better IMO. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Piotrek > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > napisał(a): > >>>> > >>>> > Thank you~ > >>>> > > >>>> > Xintong Song > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, > >>>> > > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* > discussed on the > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years > ago. On > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about > whether > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication > channels > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects > >>>> > already. > >>>> > > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 > years. > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, > and even > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also > means more > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. > Instead of > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are > proposing > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of > *moving* > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace > as an > >>>> > addition to the ML. > >>>> > > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. > IIUR, these > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked > anything, > >>>> > please let me know. > >>>> > > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack > isn't > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather > questionable > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone > can > >>>> > provide > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. > >>>> > > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. > All of > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel > requires an > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This > minimizes the > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer > >>>> > something > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll > forward this > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. > >>>> > > >>>> > Thank you~ > >>>> > > >>>> > Xintong Song > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > [1] > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d > >>>> > [2] > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc > >>>> > [3] > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 > >>>> > [4] > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts > >>>> > [5] > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j > >>>> > > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org > > > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and > was > >>>> > > rejected every time. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the > >>>> > previously > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the > project > >>>> > > as a whole. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list. > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack. > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for > opinions > >>>> > and > >>>> > > use cases. > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a > connection to > >>>> > > the Flink users. > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social > >>>> > > attributes, for example, > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and > presentations > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set > up the > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Best, > >>>> > > Jark > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > >> Hi all, > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack > >>>> > >> workspace. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication > through > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing, > should > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for > ad-hoc > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from > >>>> > different > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to > provide a > >>>> > common > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd > propose to > >>>> > create > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink > PMC. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely > overlooked. > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions > that help > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, > temporal > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.). > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still > be > >>>> > able to > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means: > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should > be > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the > Apache > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen. > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on > slack. > >>>> > Long > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be > posted on > >>>> > the > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time > >>>> > discussion. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be > responsive. We > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are > volunteers. > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all > the > >>>> > peers > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not > expect > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is > its lack > >>>> > of > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. > There are > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first > step, we may > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the > mailing > >>>> > lists. > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the > mailing > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache > hosted or > >>>> > not) > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], > HBase [4] > >>>> > >> etc. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an > official > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to > that, I’d > >>>> > like > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > >>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > >
