Lord, Mitchell, he said the problem was not the website. Do you just take jabs or do you every actually come up with a position and defend it?
On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere in > bugzilla. Can you point me to it? > > -- > James Mitchell > Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist > Consulting / Mentoring > 678.910.8017 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jonathan Revusky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <user@struts.apache.org> > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 5:29 AM > Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation > > > > Henri Yandell wrote: > >> On 3/22/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>>Henri Yandell wrote: > >>> > >>>>foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to > >>>>a codebase. > >>> > >>>Henri, I feel I should give you a bit of end-user feedback. I am not > >>>active in any apache.org projects, but, obviously, it happens quite > >>>frequently that I go visit the front page of a given apache.orgproject, > >>>to check it out for whatever needs I have at that moment. > >>>ยด > >>>FYI, when I visit foo.apache.org, I am not there for the PMC or > whatever > >>>ASF bureaucratic construct. I'm there for the code. > >>> > >>>In general, when I visit the front page of a project, I like to be able > >>>to figure out what the thing is fairly quickly. This is definitely a > >>>problem with Struts currently. > >> > >> > >> So that's a website issue ie) how to join/find the community rather > >> than an issue in how the community itself is structured. > >> > >> Do you have suggestions to improve the Struts website so that things > >> are more clear? There's not a website at the ASF that couldn't be made > >> a bit clearer. > > > > Well, just go to http://struts.apache.org/ and look at it and imagine > that > > you don't know anything about what struts is. I put it to you that the > > reader who hits your front page should not be supposed to know what the > > thing is. > > > > What is strange about it is that whoever wrote the page tacitly > recognizes > > that it is a confused jumble and spends most of the page trying to > > rationalize it. "Why two frameworks?" followed by "Why so many > > subprojects?" What is also patently obvious is that the two rhetorical > > questions are posed on the page, and never, AFAICS, answered > > satisfactorily. > > > > And then the text there just assumes all kinds of insider knowledge that > > the reader of the front page really IMHO should not be assumed to know. > > > > Now, you can go look at the page, Henri, and maybe you think it's okay. > If > > you do think the whole thing is really A-OK, then we have a difference > of > > opinion. Here is the basis of it: > > > > Who is the intended audience for this text? > > > > I guess we have different answers for that. > > > > (I could almost characterize it as that the author's intended audience > in > > "Why two frameworks?" and so on is himself!) > > > > I don't think this is a problem of website organization. The website > > problem _reflects_ a deeper problem. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > -- > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > >> > >> > >>>>So: > >>>> > >>>>If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same > >>>>community - > >>> > >>>Nah, my understanding is that this isn't really the case. There is a > >>>Struts 1.x which is basically in maintenance mode. There is a Struts > >>>Action Framework 2.x which is basically Webwork (until recently a > >>>completely separate *competing* product developed outside of ASF) and > >>>that's a completely separate team at the moment. > >> > >> > >> Right, so two communities merging. This is all good - it's probably > >> natural that you'll see the old hands maintaining the 1.2/1.3 releases > >> instead of the Webwork guys, but who knows. Plus there will be new > >> committers, maybe some who just focus on 1.3 because the community > >> wants to keep it alive. > >> > >> > >>>And Shale is something > >>>with a completely different approach, and I assume, has a separate > team. > >> > >> > >> Team-wise, everybody in Struts has access to all the code. They're > >> also using the same mailing list, and are components in the same > >> Bugzilla project. All great ways to keep the community together. > >> > >> Looking at viewcvs quickly; I immediately see overlap. People > >> committing to shale who are committing to action-1; and the same for > >> action-2. There will definitely be a focus for each person - but it's > >> easy to see cross-pollination at work. > >> > >> Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms > >> of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community - > >> as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the > >> committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active > >> future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both > >> contributors and committers. > >> > >> Yes, shale and action might move apart as the months/years go by and > >> at some point they might want to separate, but right now it doesn't > >> look like an unhealthy situation to me. These things tend to evolve > >> quite happily - someone like yourself raises a question of whether > >> it's time to make an evolutionary leap, and the community responds. In > >> the case of this thread I think it's not time for the leap. > >> > >> Hen > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
