Agreed. There have been a number of suggestions over the years about what a good "learning track" is for Cocoon... and the Hypersonic Tour is meant to be a working example of how one can use and apply jxt/flow/cforms.
I am sure its possible to create docs that match such a "track" by assembling the appropriate bits of docs together... after all, Cocoon is not called "glue" for nothing ;-) >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004/11/11 03:21:22 PM >>> Derek, I hear what you are saying, but what I was trying to say was that for a new user wishing to learn cocoon I would advise them to get to grips with jxt/flow/sitemaps first and once they have mastered that then to investigate xsp should they require it use. regards Andrew On 11 Nov 2004, at 10:08, Derek Hohls wrote: > Well, strictly speaking there is no absolute need for XSP; > you can either use JXTemplate and/or FlowScript plus the > various transformers and generators with which Cocoon is > so well-endowed (!) or, if those do not handle it, then write > some Plain Ol' Java. > > However, bear in mind that XSP allows, through the use of > logic sheets, a simple way of "XML Scripting with Tags" (if > this description helps?) that helps Java "dummies" like me > to avoid writing code for more complex cases (e.g. multiple > nested and highly conditional sets of SQL). At the end , this > "XML Script" *is* converted to Java and compiled - so if you > are a Java guru you can, obviously, write and maintain the > necessary code in Java yourself. > > In summary - avoid using XSP as far as possible, and keep it > for those cases where is no other obvious way and you want to > avoid writing Java. > > My 2c > Does that help? > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004/11/11 11:32:44 AM >>> > Chaps, > I have asked this question before, and i'm going to again, if we have > flow/jxt why xsp? If I was a new user what I would wanted see is fir > direction as to which architecture to use within cocoon and why. When I > > first started using cocoon i used xsp as that was what I saw in all the > > documentation, until I discovered flow/jxt, and then thought well why I > > have I been doing that to myself! > > To bring this technology into 70% struts commercial market, issues like > > MVC and the like need to be brought to the for, and I can't see where > xsp stands in all this. > > my 2 rupees > On 11 Nov 2004, at 06:17, Derek Hohls wrote: > >> Brent >> >> Sure. Even good documentation will never substitute for being >> able to ask a "guru" and, as I said originally, the Cocoon community >> is one of its key strengths. Its just that to get people over the >> initial learning hurdle takes guidance; and most of us are prepared >> to "self learn" with a reasonable level of written material. >> >> I agree that part of the revised docs could/should be a FAQ; not >> too hard to do if you are prepared to wade through past archives! >> >> One of the subjects I would like to see addressed, and it does come >> up quite often, is a comprehensive guide to "Variables in the > Cocoon >> Environment". There are a multitude of places where variable data >> can be stored and manipulated (XSP, XSLT, Flow, Sitemap, Java etc.) >> and passing data around an application can be just as hairy. This > is >> a topic which cuts across a number of others and, for that reason, >> would give quite a good perspective on the "inner workings" of > Cocoon >> as well as being helpful on where and how to deal with data. >> >> My 2 too. >> >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004/11/10 04:52:43 PM >>> >> Maybe there is one and Ive just never found it. But a Cocoon forum >> would be pretty helpful. Sure this list is great.. and most people > on >> it are very helpful. It'd be nice to have an archive of helpful >> answers, stickyable topics, forum categories, etc. I realize >> marc.theaimsgroup.com mailing list searches are fairly helpful.. but > a >> forum would be much nicer. >> >> Sure there could stand to be more documentation.. but I found when I >> was learning how to use Hibernate I frequently searched their forums >> for more obscure questions/answers than reviewing the documentation. >> >> Just my 2 cents. >> >> - Brent >> >> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:45:16 +0200, Derek Hohls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> Ralph >>> >>> Yup. I am not envious of any other open source package >>> ito community support and the intrinsic capability of the system >>> but I if had the odd, spare $10k or even $100k lying around >>> the first thing I would do is offer to hire some people (tech > expert >>> + writer/editor) to redo all the documents; including the main >>> website and wiki. Plus produce a high quality "getting going" > guide >>> (such as the one that projects like Hibernate has.) >>> >>> I can dream, right? >>> >>> Derek >>> >>> PS Yes, in theory, the above could be done by the community, >>> but in practice some old-fashioned, top-down, focussed effort is >>> actually what it takes to get something like this together. >>> >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004/11/10 08:54:17 AM >>> >>> >>> >>> Derek Hohls wrote: >>> >>>> I guess my 2c is that I do think Cocoon remains obscure. There >>>> seem to be lots of people doing lots of good things with it, but >>>> its never promoted [read - not discussed, written about, in forums >>>> outside of Cocoon groups, where others could sit up and take >>>> notice]. It is a chicken-and-egg situation... but these things > can >>>> be changed. >>>> >>> My $.02. >>> >>> My experience with everyone who is now using Cocoon in our >> organization >>> >>> has gone something like this: >>> >>> 1. I already know Struts (and JSPs)... >>> 2. It's too complicated. >>> 3. The documentation is bad. The published books are old and don't >>> cover >>> the current release. >>> 4. Wow. It does that?! >>> 5. This is really ccol! >>> >>> Obviously, getting past 1, 2 and 3 are the hard part, with 1 and 2 >>> being >>> the worst. The irony is that the solution, IMO, is number 3. > Cocoon >>> needs better documentation, more published articles, and better >>> documentation. >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> -- >>> This message has been scanned for viruses and >>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >>> believed to be clean. >>> MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support. >>> >>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> >> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. >> MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support. >> >> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. 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