The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. .Net is a standard, Java is a standard, PERL is a standard, JavaScript is a standard. As are CSS, HTML, etc.
As we all know, just because something is a standard does not mean that it is good, fits the problem, or is implemented properly or in any meaningful way. It is important to understand the thinking that goes into one of the standards. In business, the reason decision makers choose standards is because they want easily replaceable cogs that require little training. They've been trying to get software engineers to pay obeisance to this thinking for years, but the engineers can always come up with good reasons why a standard is not a good fit. The exceptional engineers can do it in a way that even the decision makers see the value in dropping a "standard". -----Original Message----- From: Altuğ B. Altıntaş [mailto:alt...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:51 PM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Tag Oriented Development Agreed 2009/12/25 <b...@actrix.gen.nz> > JSF == Standard? > > My question is: What should become a standard? > > When I think about standards, then things that come to mind are: > > - SQL > - ODBC > - Java > - JDBC > - EJB > - JPA > > but not JSF. And not Spring. And not ... - you name it. > > For some reason, possibly due to the fast evolving nature of the web, > web frameworks are higher up in the food chain, and I don't think that > we are ready yet to standardize on that level. People may say JSF is a > standard, so what? The fact that there are so many others seems to > prove my point. > > Bernard > > > > On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:59:16 +0200, you wrote: > > >In business, decision makers choose standards and JSF is standard so JSF > is > >good and JSF is the King. But couldn't be "The King Is Naked" ?? > > > >OR > > > >Am i wrong ? JSF is really cool and i don't know the hidden features ?? > > > >I don't want to start framework wars, this is useless but I think Wicket > >should be a JSR. > > > >I don't know how a framework like Wicket become a JSR - a standard - but > it > >should be... > > > > > >2009/12/22 Peter Thomas <ptrtho...@gmail.com> > > > >> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > >> reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > @Tomas, @Martin, > >> > > >> > I already knew those links... Thanks anyway. Actually I went a bit > >> further > >> > an implemented the same "application" on different technologies so > that > >> > developers could evaluate for themselves the wonders of "downsides" of > >> each > >> > technology... plus detailed explanations of how the code works.... > >> > Unfortunately I cannot share that code as is property of the company I > >> work > >> > for.... > >> > >> > >> That's a pretty solid approach, pity you can't share the code though. I > >> tried to do something similar as open-source: > >> http://code.google.com/p/perfbench/ > >> > >> Maybe you can contribute some analysis or even an implementation or two > ;) > >> I would be interested in your feedback, for e.g. which framework to > attempt > >> next - do let me know offline. > >> > >> > >> > >> > But the problem is those who will take the final decision will take > >> > into account more "political" reasons that things like "development > >> speed", > >> > "code quality", "code re-usability" and any other adds you throw at > >> them... > >> > > >> > > >> > @Martin, > >> > > >> > Congratulations! Hope I can say the same in a few months. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > > >> > Ernesto > >> > > >> > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Peter Thomas <ptrtho...@gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro < > >> > > reier...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Hi Eelco, > >> > > > > >> > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Eelco Hillenius < > >> > > > eelco.hillen...@gmail.com > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I love Wicket and the natural approach it offers to do > >> > > > web-development... > >> > > > > > and I have been pushing hard to use it whenever possible... > but > >> on > >> > > the > >> > > > > > "real world" it is not enough to be an excellent product to > gain > >> > > > > > wide acceptance... Does last sentence ring a bell? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I think we've gained pretty wide acceptance actually. Wicket In > >> > Action > >> > > > > has been a best seller for Manning in the months right after it > >> came > >> > > > > out, and Wicket is by many considered as one of the leading web > >> > > > > frameworks for Java. We've also had one of the most active email > >> > lists > >> > > > > for years now. I'm sure Wicket lags behind JSF and Struts > >> > considerably > >> > > > > when it comes to number of users, but hey, why would we care. > You > >> > only > >> > > > > need a bunch of serious users to maintain a framework, and > Wicket > >> has > >> > > > > many thousands of them :-) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > You don't have to convince me about Wicket excellence! I love > >> Wicket, > >> > > > I've > >> > > > been using it for over two years now, and right now I'm doing all > my > >> > > > efforts > >> > > > to get it adopted at the company I'm working for... But being > >> realistic > >> > > > they > >> > > > will probably jump to Struts 2, or Seam-JSF... > >> > > > > >> > > > After re-reading my message I see maybe it was bit > "pessimistic".. > >> > maybe > >> > > > out of my present frustration. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > may be useful when debating Wicket vs JSF where you work etc: > >> > > http://tinyurl.com/jsf-sucks > >> > > > >> > > - Peter > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Cheers, > >> > > > > >> > > > Ernesto > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org > > -- Altuğ.
