Jon Stevens wrote:
>
> on 9/24/2000 6:16 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > And I am pretty sure (I haven't done it though) that the functionality
> > of each WM directive can be easily implemented in Java within a JSP
> > page, as WM functionality is covered by JSP's functionality.
>
> True, but the methodology for implementing them is different. In JSP, you
> would either use a taglib or implement it in Java itself. What isn't
> possible to do in JSP is something simple like this:
>
> #if ($foo)
> <html> code </html>
> #else
> <html> other code </html>
> #end
>
> In JSP, you would need to do some seriously ugly hacking with <% %> to get
> that to happen. Thing is that the above is something that I would get used
> on about 90% of the pages I write, so it is important to me to have that
> ability.
As I think taglibs are a horrible idea, my thinking has always been
along the lines of <% %> and using java. I think I will try a
conversion and see what happens.
> > I had said nothing about the reverse, converting JSP to WM, which is the
> > problem you correctly identified, as WM doesn't cover JSP's
> > functionality. (Further, it shows me you aren't reading what I am
> > writing, I think, or I am not writing what I am thinking.)
> >
> > I am so happy with WM, I counsel friends considering JSP to try WM
> > first, rather than try the other way, because, as you point out JSP
> > isn't covered by WM, and JSP is a disgusting abomination, in my
> > opinion. (I think the tag libraries make it worse than ASP, which I
> > didn't think possible.) But we are getting a bit off topic here.
> >
> > Remember the context that came from : I chose to use WM in a project for
> > a client because I felt that I was minimizing technology risk as I
> > thought I would be able to move a WM implementation to JSP w/o major
> > headache if problems arose.
>
> Hmmm...I guess that is the disconnect between OSS and commercial software.
> In OSS, if problems arise, you simply fix them. :-) No need to guard against
> the need to switch. :-)
Except when you are a consultant and you hope and expect to turn a
system over for others of differing abilities to work on. It's a real
issue. While my client is very technical and *not* a PHB, that can
also be an issue as well - people have to be weaned slowly off
commercial software and onto OSS.
> > Aside from the observation that when you use for the ends of the scale
> > the things that you are comparing, those things will be far apart, care
> > to elaborate a bit here?
>
> MVC. :-)
That isn't turbine then :)
> > If you are saying that it tries to be 'far away' in that rather than
> > unfettered access to data, control and resources available to the
> > designer of a JSP page, WM contrains the programmatic functionality
> > available to the designer to a small, limited set of actions, and that
> > access to any resources and application 'flow' control is entirely in
> > the domain of the programmer, then I agree.
>
> right. I agree.
>
> > On the other hand, if you say that they are both examples of a java
> > servlet based web application development system that allows dynamic
> > creation of web content, then WM is a lot closer than JSP than what I
> > understand Broadvision to be.
> > On the otherhand, Broadvision may be MVC nervana. (Haven't used it...)
>
> I don't know anything about BV, nor really care. :-) Commercial software.
But on the 'get to know the technologies before you' theme,
understanding the commercial competitors to your web construction tools
is important.
> > It would be interesting to sit down sometime and chat about what you
> > think I am saying, and what I think I am saying. It's pretty apparent
> > that as of this moment, they aren't the same thing.
>
> Yep, seems like we lost that "personal" connection in email. :-( Sorry about
> that. :-( You live in bay area?
No, east coast, Connecticut.
>
> p.s. I'm working on my Turbine MVC/Model 2+1 talk right now for ApacheCon
> EU. If you are going to be there, come to my talk. :-)
If I could I would, but could only expense that travel to the IRS...
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
