Heath, you are not understanding what the manifesto is or what the video collection is.
We did not tell anyone about the manifesto. Those who found it did so due to their own curiosity. This was a conscious choice for us as we would rather have people discover it on their own. In time it was picked up by boing boing, letting the cat out of the proverbial bag. This is however irrelevant. If you read the manifesto you will notice that it does not prescribe a defined behaviour people must follow to be included (other than the six lumiere rules, naturally). Nor does it say that the videos in the collection are made by people who stand behind the manifesto. If you are reading that you must be deliberately misunderstanding what it says. The manifesto is quite clearly Brittany's and my reasoning to creating this video collection. We speak for ourselves and not for anyone else. It is right there at the bottom just above the six lumiere rules): "As such, we propose and curate, as inspired by media evangelist Aske Dam and the remoscope collective, a collection of personal videos that adhere to the following principles (arguably the natural limits of the original Lumieres)" The collection is proposed by us and it is a curated collection, managed by us. It is our names below the manifesto, not anyone else's. These are our reasons for collecting the lumiere videos that people are creating - it says *nothing* about why people are creating these videos. I am sure there are as many reasons as there are videos. As I have already pointed out to Cheryl, we gave it much thought that some people may disagree with what we wrote. As I have already pointed out this was one of our goals. We had no responsibility to let anyone know about it ahead of time as we are only speaking for ourselves, explaining why we are curating this collection of videos. There is no terms of service. We are not service providers for you. We are linking to works that we find interesting (namely works that follow the six lumiere rules). This is how the internet works. You make a webpage that contains inks to other webpages. When I write blog posts I do not ask for permission to mention other websites. I did not email Hillary Clinton, Jay Dedman or Wordpress.org's maintainer to ask permission to talk about them or link to them - just to take 3 examples from my last 4 blog posts. The idea that anyone will have to ask permission to link is silly. It's a curated collection of links, that's all it is. We get submissions through the site and we find lumiere videos in the wild that hasn't been specifically submitted and we add those too. This is how the internet works. The difference between the manifesto and an average blog is perhaps that we have stated our reasons clearly and that we use longer sentences. That is hardly something you can fault us for. - Andreas PS. As I said to Cheryl: If you don't want people to link to your videos, delete them. Den 14.01.2008 kl. 09:20 skrev Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Andreas - I am curious, did you let everyone know when you put out > your Lumiere video manifesto? I know I made my Lumiere video (July > 07) before this manifesto was put onto the site. > > I know at that time I learned about Lumiere video's through Verdi and > I remember checking the site and just seeing links to videos, I > remember reading the site and to be honest I don't remember > Brittany's name being on the site, I remember your's. > > The reason I am curious about you letting everyone know about the > manifesto is this, if you didn't let everyone know and I know I don't > recall any mention of a manifesto, is that you and Brittany (and > whomever else may have been involved) decieded to create this AFTER > already having the site up and running under a defined set of rules. > Did you give any thought that some may disagree? Did you give any > thought that you had a responability to let people know what you were > doing in case someone had an issue? Did you feel think that was the > viewers or creator's responability? > > I view it as a change in a "terms of service" kind of thing, and I > think you should have let pepole know, but that's just me. And yes I > did read the manifesto and I agree with many things you stated, but I > would have liked to know that before now, and would have liked the > opportunity to remove my link if I did not agree. That simple > courtesty would have been nice. > > Heath > http://batmangeek.com > > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Cheryl, it is fine that you have other issues with me, us or the >> manifesto, but I would like it if you could take a moment to > reflect on >> what my issue is before jumping on to other things. First off > Brittany >> doesn't participate in this group - she quit it before you started >> videoblogging. That is most likely the same reason why you have > received >> any promotional materials or encouragement from her. I was on > Twitter back >> when the lumieres started and I used that to promote the project. > Brittany >> has pushed it in other circles. As I held your hand when you > started she >> held others. You have read the manifesto: how could you think that > we >> would write a manifesto together if we were not both working on > the >> project? Is it surprising that I reacted? Would you not like it if > those >> you work with make sure that you receive credit for what you do? >> >> That is my one issue: Give credit where credit is due. It takes no > effort >> at all to look up a name, but it means everything to that person. > You >> would not feel very good if you never received any acknowledgement > for the >> work you've done on Show in a Box to grab one example. That is why > I see a >> "bio" page coming on the SIAB website - so others know how to > acknowledge. >> The fact that I'm closely involved in the lumiere videos means that > it was >> a no-brainer for me to spot it this time, but it doesn't mean you > can >> ignore my request. Is it not a fair request to receive proper >> acknowledgement for the work you do? >> >> As for everything else: >> I am happy that Rox made a lumiere, at the same time we can't write > back >> to everyone who makes one of those anymore. We had to stop when we > reached >> a couple of hundred videos because it was taking too much time. You > must >> understand that 425 lumiere videos have been made since you posted > your >> last one. It was also clear that Rox hadn't seen the website as she > linked >> to one of my blogposts instead of videoblogging.info (and there is > a clear >> link to vb.info from that blogpost). I can't and won't take full > credit >> for the lumiere project and that's why I had to write back in the > way I >> did. >> >> Regarding the manifesto: >> It's a manifesto for crying out loud! It's supposed to be strong > and >> without compromise to grab your attention and make you think about > what >> you are creating, for whom and with what purpose. The fact that you > have >> not removed your videos makes me think we were being too nice in > writing >> it. >> >> It's written as a reaction to the type of video and behaviour both > of us >> were seeing and still are. It's an open disagreement and that's the > whole >> point of writing a manifesto. To make the obvious comparison the > dogme95 >> manifesto was a reaction towards filmmaking as it was taking place > in the >> 90s, the lumiere manifesto is a reaction towards the general state > of >> videoblogging. If you feel attacked by the manifesto, that's a good > thing, >> you should. I feel attacked by it and I co-wrote it! It is > unfortunate >> that you did not go anywhere with your frustrations - the goal was > to make >> you reflect on your practices rather than sit with a stiff upper > lip and >> not react because you don't agree. >> >> I personally don't have much patience with constant backpatting. > There >> needs to be constant challenge or we can't evolve (that goes in > general >> and in regards to videoblogging). Sitting around in a circle >> congratulating ourselves on how great everything is moves us > nowhere. It >> is my responsibility and your responsibility to challenge the > status quo. >> This forces us to think about where we are, where we want to be and > how we >> can get there. >> >> It is curious to me that the comments stating strong disagreement > with the >> manifesto (in the "I don't want to participate anymore because the >> manifesto is criticizing things I like" kind of way) have all > happened on >> Twitter. They are spoken into a void using fragmented sentence in a > room >> where it is impossible to carry a conversation (because all > arguments are >> limited and each one is forgotten in a microsecond as it moves off > the >> page). At the same time those who have taken the manifesto as a > manifesto >> and used it to look at themselves in a new way have all written e- > mails >> (where it is possible to carry on a conversation). These people do > not >> agree with everything we say (just as I don't always agree with > everything >> we say), but they are doing something constructive. Sam from > patalab is >> one who has been involved in countless conversations and had the > following >> to say about the lumiere project just last week: >> >> "...the Lumiere project can be regarded as a beacon. It’s > actual, >> progressive potential for liberating “sightâ€� might not have > been that >> apparent when the project started. It probably was conceived more > out of >> conceptual concerns, as an inoffensive game to play. But it seems > to be >> one of the very few projects on the net - that I am aware of â€" > that might >> have the inherent potential of actually re-installing a gaze of > freedom." >> >> Regarding insults: >> I cannot choose not to be insulted when I read Rox's mail, just as > you >> cannot choose not to be insulted when you read the lumiere > manifesto. Our >> actions have consequences and this time I chose to act on the > consequence >> Rox's mail had on me. You chose not to react on the consequence > the >> manifesto has on you (though I wish you had). >> >> - Andreas >> >> PS. If you want to have your videos removed simply delete them from > your >> website. We don't host any videos at all. We link to everything so > you are >> 100% in control. I'm always sorry to see links go dead of course, > but it's >> not my choice. >> >> >> Den 13.01.2008 kl. 11:49 skrev Cheryl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> >> > You have *got* to be kidding, Andreas. >> > >> > When you and Brittany started getting into lumieres, the only > person I >> > saw talk about them or promote them was you. It was you > encouraging me >> > to try doing them. You picked up the ones I made without tagging > them >> > properly, and gently taught me how to tag them if I wanted them > to be >> > picked up for the lumiere showcase site. If I choose to relate > those >> > facts of my personal experience, will I suddenly be a jerk for not >> > looking up Brittany's involvement and finding some way to mention > it, >> > even though it's not what called my attention to lumiere video? >> > >> > Rox writes genuinely and lovingly about why she decided to try a >> > lumiere, and you could have chosen to comment in a positive way to >> > honor Brittany for her contributions and encourage Rox to > continue to >> > experiment with the form. Instead you choose to be insulted, and > tell >> > us that Brittany does, too (though surely she can speak for > herself?). >> > You choose to answer negatively instead of positively. >> > >> > I started with lumieres because it was *fun*, and because of your >> > encouragement, and because some of Brittany's work was inspiring > to >> > me, though I didn't know at the time she was your collaborator. > The >> > second the manifesto appeared, I stopped, because it doesn't > represent >> > my thoughts or feelings and I don't want to be associated with > it. I >> > don't even want my work appearing on the same site with it! I > didn't >> > say so publicly or ask you to remove links to the lumieres I made >> > because I didn't want to insult you and Brittany. I just decided > to >> > quietly stop producing lumieres and let my actions speak for >> > themselves. But because you feel it necessary to treat Rox in this >> > manner, I think it's time to tell you the manifesto *does* put > people >> > off, and suggest it as one possible reason lumiere video isn't > getting >> > a lot of discussion in the group. You manage to suck all the fun > out >> > of making them. >> > >> > If I've learned anything in the past 30 days, it's that I can't > insult >> > you, Brittany or anyone else. No one can. You have to choose to > feel >> > insulted. I recommend choosing something more fun to feel. >> > >> > Cheryl Colan >> > >> > >> > --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen" >> > <solitude@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Rox, >> >> >> >> I know the lumiere videos have not been discussed in this group > (they >> >> don't have ads and there's no web 2.0 start-up involved, I > guess), but >> >> it's still not very nice not to give credit where credit is due. >> > Lumiere >> >> videos have been posted since May/June last year. Since the >> > beginning it >> >> has been a two-person effort where Brittany and I have been >> > collecting the >> >> videos, encouraging people to create the videos and writing our >> > reasoning >> >> for pushing these types of videos. That's why both our names are > on >> > the >> >> front page of the website: http://videoblogging.info/ >> >> >> >> You may think this is a small mistake and in the amount of > letters >> > missing >> >> from your email and blogpost it is. At the same time not doing > this >> > very >> >> basic research and thus leaving out the name of half the people >> > behind the >> >> project is extremely discouraging to those left out. Over the > past 8 >> >> months Brittany and I have put in a large amount of work > handling the >> >> lumiere videos and acknowledging my work, but not hers, is > insulting >> > to >> >> both of us. >> >> >> >> The collection of lumiere videos currently consists of 548 videos >> > from 78 >> >> different people. You can jump straight to the videos at >> >> http://videoblogging.info/lumiere/ If I must say so myself it is > an >> >> amazing repository of creativity. >> >> >> >> - Andreas >> >> >> >> Den 11.01.2008 kl. 05:17 skrev Roxanne Darling <okekai@>: >> >> >> >> > A little public gushing here, I hope you all will indulge me. I >> > learned >> >> > about Lumiere from Rupert. >> >> > I finally made one today, and I want to thank you publicly, >> > Rupert, (and >> >> > Andreas too) for illuminating me about this art form. >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://www.beachwalks.tv/2008/01/11/beach-walk-567-first-lumiere- > for-rupert/ >> >> > >> >> > Love, >> >> > >> >> > Rox >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen >> >> http://www.solitude.dk/ >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen >> http://www.solitude.dk/ >> > > -- Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen http://www.solitude.dk/
