Ta Monica. Re low breaking stress of early wire, I find it of interest that many extant battente seem to have a shorter neck than conventional 17thC guitars. However the position of the 11th fret (ie generally close to the neck/body join) remained the same as with gut strung instruments and this is, of course, possible because the battente with folded/bent belly had a much higher bridge position than 'conventional' instruments. I'm aware of a few late 90's revisionist theories that all these are fakes or 19/20thC instruments apeing ealier instruments, but am unconvinced. A good example of an early short necked battente is in Baines (Nos 294/295) - I wonder where it is now? It's always seemed very genuine to me, but... Interestingly, on the opposite page is a guitar by 'Matteo Sellas' dated c. 1630(?) (Nos 285-7) which I think was rebuilt in the 18thC as a conventional gtr but was probably originally a battente (ie folded belly - the mark is clear, short neck) - prhps this is indirect evidence that the earlier battente tradition had declined by then. MH
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There is another interesting paper on wire strung guitars in the most recent Galpin Society Journal. Darryl Martin The early wire-strung guitar - G.S.J. no. 59, May 2006, p.123-137. M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" ; "Cittern NET" ; "Early Guitar NET" ; "Vihuela Net" Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 2:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tuning? > > Thanks Lex, I hope Sebastian can let me have some more info on stringing. > > One of the reasons I mentioned low tensions was that the instrument I made all those years ago had a fold/bend in the belly ( like a neopolitan mandolin) and I had always rather assumed this constructional feature was there to enable higher tension stringing (as appears to be the case with the neop mand) - even tho' in the event the customer ewventuaslly decided on a fairly low tension. If such relatively low tensions were in fact used (ie less than ordinary gut stringing, say) then I wonder about the point of having a fold. > > There was a v interesting paper, that I'm sure you'll know, in the Galpin Soc Journal many (20?) years ago about surviving battente tradition in Calabria but unfortunately didn't (as I recall) give much about detailed stringing - I'll dig it out if you don't have a copy. > > I have in mind to make a battente for my own use and had initially thought of using quite high tensions and a plectrum - might certainly be effective in early opera as well as in songs. Your experience of low tensions makes me have second thoughts and I quite like the idea of gently strumming wire strings - but I still wonder about the fold (or doesn't yours have one - not all end fastening guitars seemed to..........). > > Any other experiences etc welcome. > > MH > > > > Lex Eisenhardt wrote: > Martyn, > > The stringlength is 67, the pitch 415. I relied on Sebastian's advice in the choice of the strings. I hope he can give you the details of the manufacturing. It works well, not too many stringbreaks, although tuning is certainly a bit problematic. Sebastian made bass strings of twisted wire. Not so pleasant if you pluck those (with nails...). I have not played much on the instrument lately (the recording was made for a long time.) > Sebastian is probably on the list.... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Martyn Hodgson > To: Lex Eisenhardt ; Early Guitar NET ; Vihuela Net ; Cittern NET > Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 5:41 PM > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tuning? > > > Lex, > > Many years ago I made a battente for a customer (from Italy - talk about coals to Newcastle) and recall having problems with getting 'authentic' iron/steel strings (I used harpsichord wire from Thomas I recall up to pitch (even as low as a tone below modern): the trebles kept snapping. I put this down to either better quality steel was actually readily available than generally supposed nowadays or the wire strung battente was strung at a lower pitch and/or had a shorter neck (as indeed some extant examples seem to exhibit). > > I also understood (Eph Segerman's work, et alia) that the problems with supplies of reasonably high tensile steel wire (ie the factory in Germany ceased production in early 17thC) were amongst the reasons some thought for the decline of the orpharion (not the Bandora tho' which had a lower string stress on its highest course). > > Many modern copies of early wire strung plucked instruments seem to be strung at v low tensions (again after early work by Segerman et alia) which makes seems to make playing well in tune a problem. > > Have you a view on all this? I would be grateful to know the string length of your battente, the pitch, the stringsand string tensions you are in fact using? > > regards, > > Martyn > > > > > > Lex Eisenhardt wrote: > Dear Monica > > As I understand this CS2 is from the late 17th c. It is hard to tell if -and > how- the mutual influence from cittern and guitar has worked out. It > certainly could be a subject where we guitarists could learn some. > > > >> I wanted to ask you if you played your wire string guitar with a > plecturm? > > My battente is strung very lightly and is well 'strummable' with the > fingers. A Cd is going to be released a few weeks from now, on which I use > this instrument (by Sebastian Nunez) for song-accompaniment. Venetian songs > (1620-1640) and some Foscarini (on the Chitarra Spagnuola, of course). > > > > > > I don't think that campanellas are really an issue here. It seems to be a > > common mis-conception re-entrant tunings have something to do with > > campanellas. > > I could not agree more. A whole generation of scholars and players have been > following the wrong star. > > L. > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > -- > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > -- > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
