The Moulinie (1629) I mentioned earlier is well before Martin (1663) which I think you say in your Bartolotti paper is the first French guitar book in tablature.
M --- On Wed, 17/3/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Wednesday, 17 March, 2010, 20:50 Well - it's a bit late at night and I have been away all day helping to look after my sister who is very ill so I am not my brightest and best.. My plan was to do Corbetta's Italian prefaces and then go back to the beginning to try to trace how French tab developed before Corbetta and La guitarre royale.. These are a few random thoughts which may not be to the point. I have only got a few French sources dating from before Francois Martin lined up at present. There doesn't seem to be a great deal but there may be things I am not aware of. Apart from anything else I think the French - and everybody including the English - didn't need printed books specifically designed for them at first because they would have been able to obtain Italian publications easily. Mersenne had copies of Millioni and Colonna. Music publishing is and was an international undertaking. I think the reason why they don't use alfabeto has as much to do with what the printers were able and willing to do as anything else. In manuscript sources - at lest in the Gallot ms. alfabeto is combined with French tab. And there are manuscript fragments with Italian stroke marks. I did actually ask Gerard Rebours whether there are sources which put the note values on the stave earlier than Martin and he couldn't think of any. It is actually Carbonchi who first put the stroke marks on the stave. But why did the French invent French tablature in the first place - an interesting question? It has always seemed less logical than Italian to me. That will have to do for tonight but it is an interesting subject and perhaps some of the others will have some thoughts. Cheers Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:29 AM Subject: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s I don't expect the impossible - even from you Monica! But my mentioning the early French connection was the link to intabulations in France around the same dates as the Italian sources you listed ie up to the 1620s. In short, the pre-Corbetta days. The unfamiliarity of the strummed style in this period surely led, with true gallic systemisation, to the perceived need to intabulate precisely (or as precisely as they cld manage) the manner of strumming. Whereas it seems to me that with local familiarity of the instrument in Italy (and a more relaxed, rather than procrustean, Italian approach) there was not such a need for precise intabulations. Speculative of course, but hence my remark even at this stage...... Martyn --- On Tue, 16/3/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, 16 March, 2010, 9:17 Yes - but that is still to come... I am planning to move on to Corbetta next and that leads into French tablature and French sources. But it all takes time...... Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: [3]Martyn Hodgson To: [4]Monica Hall ; [5]Vihuela Dmth Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages Dear Monica, As ever all very good stuff thank you. The precise translations (and uncertainties) are particularly helpful and I especially welcome the inclusion of songs with guitar - a popular contemporary form which, it seems to me, is much neglected nowadays. Perhaps, to show a fuller and trans-national picture, it might also be useful to include the (if rather pedestrian) settings by French composers (eg Moulinie, Pierre Ballard 1629) which are more specific about strums (in terms of which courses to sound etc) and could support our interpretation of the Italian alfabeto settings. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 15/3/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: [VIHUELA] Web pages To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Monday, 15 March, 2010, 21:03 I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It all forms part of my project with the title "The baroque guitar made simple" and it consists of translations of the instructions to the player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna, Sanseverino and Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate section on alfabeto songs. There is a general introduction and then the pages about Foscarini and Bartolotti follow on. Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received. I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The books do throw up quite a lot of interesting background details. For example Colonna and Sanseverino both dedicated books to the Milanese nobleman Conde Iulio Borromeo who was related to Saint Charles Borromeo and Colonna says he was living in Iulio Cesare's household when he composed his pieces. There is more to these books than meets the eye. cheers Monica -- References 1. [6]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html