Yes - I understand the point you are making.
What I said is that Francois Martin's book is the first in French tablature
in which the note values are placed on the stave with the tails down or up
to indicate the direction of the strummed strokes.
Moulinie doesn't do this. There are two things about this source.
1. He doesn't give any indication that the chords are meant to be
strummed.
2. He clearly indicates when open courses are to be included in the chords
by including the "a"s.
The reason for this is that the songs are included in a volume of Airs de
Cour - most of which have a lute accompaniment - volume 3 of a series of
lute songs and the guitar accompaniment is notated and printed in the same
way as the lute accompaniment. It is not typical of later French sources.
I think most people would accept that the accompaniment is intended to be
strummed - it wouldn't make much sense to play it in any other way.
So it is an example of - What you see isn't what you are supposed to do!
Moulinie may not have been a guitarist.
Martin doesn't indicate which open courses are to be included.
Hope that clarifies matters.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Vihuela Dmth"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
The Moulinie (1629) I mentioned earlier is well before Martin (1663)
which I think you say in your Bartolotti paper is the first French
guitar book in tablature.
M
--- On Wed, 17/3/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 17 March, 2010, 20:50
Well - it's a bit late at night and I have been away all day helping to
look after my sister who is very ill so I am not my brightest and
best.. My plan was to do Corbetta's Italian prefaces and then go back
to the beginning to try to trace how French tab developed before
Corbetta and La guitarre royale..
These are a few random thoughts which may not be to the point.
I have only got a few French sources dating from before Francois Martin
lined up at present. There doesn't seem to be a great deal but there
may be things I am not aware of.
Apart from anything else I think the French - and everybody including
the English - didn't need printed books specifically designed for them
at first because they would have been able to obtain Italian
publications easily. Mersenne had copies of Millioni and Colonna.
Music publishing is and was an international undertaking. I think the
reason why they don't use alfabeto has as much to do with what the
printers were able and willing to do as anything else.
In manuscript sources - at lest in the Gallot ms. alfabeto is combined
with French tab. And there are manuscript fragments with Italian
stroke marks.
I did actually ask Gerard Rebours whether there are sources which put
the note values on the stave earlier than Martin and he couldn't think
of any. It is actually Carbonchi who first put the stroke marks on
the stave.
But why did the French invent French tablature in the first place - an
interesting question? It has always seemed less logical than Italian
to me.
That will have to do for tonight but it is an interesting subject and
perhaps some of the others will have some thoughts.
Cheers
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:29 AM
Subject: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
I don't expect the impossible - even from you Monica! But my
mentioning the early French connection was the link to intabulations in
France around the same dates as the Italian sources you listed ie up to
the 1620s. In short, the pre-Corbetta days. The unfamiliarity of the
strummed style in this period surely led, with true gallic
systemisation, to the perceived need to intabulate precisely (or as
precisely as they cld manage) the manner of strumming. Whereas it seems
to me that with local familiarity of the instrument in Italy (and a
more relaxed, rather than procrustean, Italian approach) there was not
such a need for precise intabulations. Speculative of course, but hence
my remark even at this stage......
Martyn
--- On Tue, 16/3/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 16 March, 2010, 9:17
Yes - but that is still to come...
I am planning to move on to Corbetta next and that leads into French
tablature and French sources.
But it all takes time......
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [3]Martyn Hodgson
To: [4]Monica Hall ; [5]Vihuela Dmth
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages
Dear Monica,
As ever all very good stuff thank you. The precise translations (and
uncertainties) are particularly helpful and I especially welcome the
inclusion of songs with guitar - a popular contemporary form which, it
seems to me, is much neglected nowadays. Perhaps, to show a fuller and
trans-national picture, it might also be useful to include the (if
rather pedestrian) settings by French composers (eg Moulinie, Pierre
Ballard 1629) which are more specific about strums (in terms of which
courses to sound etc) and could support our interpretation of the
Italian alfabeto settings.
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 15/3/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Web pages
To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 15 March, 2010, 21:03
I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page -
[1]www.monicahall.co.uk
It all forms part of my project with the title "The baroque guitar
made
simple" and it consists of translations of the instructions to the
player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna, Sanseverino
and
Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate section
on
alfabeto songs.
There is a general introduction and then the pages about Foscarini
and
Bartolotti follow on.
Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received.
I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The books do
throw
up quite a lot of interesting background details. For example
Colonna
and Sanseverino both dedicated books to the Milanese nobleman Conde
Iulio Borromeo who was related to Saint Charles Borromeo and
Colonna
says he was living in Iulio Cesare's household when he composed his
pieces.
There is more to these books than meets the eye.
cheers
Monica
--
References
1. [6]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
To get on or off this list see list information at
[7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
