Many thanks for this Monica.
Sorry to be pedantic but what you're now saying I wrote is
largely contrary to what I actually did write! Clarfication:
1. As I already said, the marketing possibilities would have largely
dictated the use of the more common French tablature (as you now say).
I wrote 'Presumably these relatively new symbols were little known in
France at the time so that full intabulation was an obvious method to
use for marketing the publication'.
2. I was very careful NOT to say ('assume' as you put it) 'that in 1629
that alfabeto notation or the strummed style were unknown in
France' as you paraphrase what I wrote. In fact I said 'Presumably
these relatively new symbols were little known in France at the time'
and also said that 'surely an indication that the foreign (strummed)
style was not unknown in France (even if the special guitar symbols
were largely so). '
'
3. As I pointed out, the dot indicates an upwards strum/rake.
Conversely the absence of a particular sign to indicate a downwards
strum does not mean a strum wasn't used (equally it doesn't prove the
converse). Are you suggesting that these guitar pieces did not employ a
downward strum? I thought you agreed with me that this was the most
likely explantion for the full five repeated chords.
4. I suggested that the beam/tie could be a (crude) way of attempting
to indicate strumming in the absence of any other signs being widely
available and recognised in France at the time. It could be that it
might also serve the usage you suggest (The tie under the chords
indicates that they are played against a single sustained note/syllable
in the voice part not the chords are strummed as I understand it.),
However this is not consistently supported by examples such as on the
fu- of 'fuga' in Non speri pieta where, if I understand aright, your
suggestion would require a beam which is not, in fact, present in the
part (and other examples such as on lieto in the next piece, etc). As
with all these, more work required......
5 When I suggested that 'I think it prudent not to impose our own
retrospective judgements on such evidence.' , I had in mind the
thought that a contemporary (pre-Corbetta) French source (such as the
Moulinie) might be able to provide some evidence of performance
practice which the contemporary Italian sources (documented in your
excellent paper) were less than clear about. In this case the precise
courses incorporated into a downwards strum/stroke and an upwards one.
I still don't think it should be discarded as having no relevance
whatsoever to the question of Italian practice - especially when the
guitar songs (with one exception) are all to Italian or Spanish texts!
I'm still puzzled by 'What you see isn't what you are supposed to do!'
which might suggest retrospective judgement....................
Again,many thanks for the recent paper.
Martyn
/3/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 19 March, 2010, 12:49
Well - I don't want to get too bogged down in this at this stage but
there
are few points which I think are worth considering.
These songs are included in a volume (which is part of a series) of
Airs de
Cour, all the rest of which have lute accompaniment.
When notating the guitar accompaniment, Moulinie has used the same
system as
he has for the lute parts. When printing and marketing the music you
wouldn't chose to notate a few of the songs in a completely different
way
which would probably involve using a different printing process.
I wouldn't assume that in 1629 that alfabeto notation or the strummed
style
were unknown in France. Apart from anything else Castilian ciphers
used by
Brizeno would have been known as his book was printed in 1626 and
apparently
there was an influx of Spaniards and a fashion for things Spanish in
the
wake of the marriage of Louis XIII to Anne of Austria in 1615.
The dot under the three part chords does indicate that these should be
raked
with the first finger as on the lute but there is no indication that
the
5-part chords
should be strummed.
I am not sure what you mean by beaming chords. The tie under the
chords
indicates that they are played against a single sustained note/syllable
in
the voice part not the chords are strummed as I understand it.
But there are very few sources in French tablature for the 5-course
guitar
either printed or in clearly dated manuscripts. Amongst these Moulinie
is
the only one that writes out the chords in full and doesn't clearly
indicate
that 5-part chords are to be strummed.
I hope I am not imposing my own retrospective judgment on anything!
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:55 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
>
>
> Well, I'm not so sure.
>
> Without the knowledge or general use of alfabeto and strum
direction
> signs (but note the index finger upstroke sign he uses), Moulinie's
> tablature looks a suitable way of indicating strumming (beaming
chords;
> using dot for index finger up strum/rake, consistent use of chords
> using all five courses) without employing such symbols.
> Presumably these relatively new symbols were little known in France
at
> the time so that full intabulation was an obvious method to use for
> marketing the publication.
>
> I think it prudent not to impose our own retrospective judgements
on
> such evidence. Hence why I thought it might be useful to look at
this
> source for guitar accompanied songs ('AIR DE COURT / AVEC LA
TABLATURE
> DE LUTH ET DE GUITARRE' ) at the same time as the Italian strummed
> (alfabeto) song accompaniments (ie pre- Corbetta) you discussed in
your
> latest excellent paper.
>
> It is also surely of relevance that the lute song settings are to
> French texts (with one exception - the dialogue 'Soufrez beaux
yeux' )
> whereas the guitar accompaniments are all to Italian and Spanish
texts
> - surely an indication that the foreign (strummed) style was not
unkown
> in France (even if the special guitar symbols were largely so). .
>
> Incidentally I don't understand your comment that 'What you see
isn't
> what you are supposed to do!' - what are you expected to do that
can't
> be seen?
>
> regards
>
> Martyn
> --- On Thu, 18/3/10, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Thursday, 18 March, 2010, 13:25
>
> Yes - I understand the point you are making.
> What I said is that Francois Martin's book is the first in French
> tablature
> in which the note values are placed on the stave with the tails
down or
> up
> to indicate the direction of the strummed strokes.
> Moulinie doesn't do this. There are two things about this source.
> 1. He doesn't give any indication that the chords are meant to be
> strummed.
> 2. He clearly indicates when open courses are to be included in
the
> chords
> by including the "a"s.
> The reason for this is that the songs are included in a volume of
Airs
> de
> Cour - most of which have a lute accompaniment - volume 3 of a
series
> of
> lute songs and the guitar accompaniment is notated and printed in
the
> same
> way as the lute accompaniment. It is not typical of later French
> sources.
> I think most people would accept that the accompaniment is intended
to
> be
> strummed - it wouldn't make much sense to play it in any other way.
> So it is an example of - What you see isn't what you are supposed
to
> do!
> Moulinie may not have been a guitarist.
> Martin doesn't indicate which open courses are to be included.
> Hope that clarifies matters.
> Monica
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[2][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Vihuela Dmth"
> <[3][10]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:41 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
> >
> >
> > The Moulinie (1629) I mentioned earlier is well before Martin
> (1663)
> > which I think you say in your Bartolotti paper is the first
French
> > guitar book in tablature.
> >
> > M
> > --- On Wed, 17/3/10, Monica Hall <[4][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[5][12]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6][13]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][14]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Wednesday, 17 March, 2010, 20:50
> >
> > Well - it's a bit late at night and I have been away all day
> helping to
> > look after my sister who is very ill so I am not my brightest
and
> > best.. My plan was to do Corbetta's Italian prefaces and then
go
> back
> > to the beginning to try to trace how French tab developed
before
> > Corbetta and La guitarre royale..
> >
> > These are a few random thoughts which may not be to the point.
> >
> > I have only got a few French sources dating from before
Francois
> Martin
> > lined up at present. There doesn't seem to be a great deal but
> there
> > may be things I am not aware of.
> >
> > Apart from anything else I think the French - and everybody
> including
> > the English - didn't need printed books specifically designed
for
> them
> > at first because they would have been able to obtain Italian
> > publications easily. Mersenne had copies of Millioni and
Colonna.
> > Music publishing is and was an international undertaking. I
think
> the
> > reason why they don't use alfabeto has as much to do with what
the
> > printers were able and willing to do as anything else.
> >
> > In manuscript sources - at lest in the Gallot ms. alfabeto is
> combined
> > with French tab. And there are manuscript fragments with
Italian
> > stroke marks.
> >
> > I did actually ask Gerard Rebours whether there are sources
which
> put
> > the note values on the stave earlier than Martin and he
couldn't
> think
> > of any. It is actually Carbonchi who first put the stroke
marks
> on
> > the stave.
> >
> > But why did the French invent French tablature in the first
place -
> an
> > interesting question? It has always seemed less logical than
> Italian
> > to me.
> >
> > That will have to do for tonight but it is an interesting
subject
> and
> > perhaps some of the others will have some thoughts.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Monica
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
> >
> > To: [2]Monica Hall
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:29 AM
> >
> > Subject: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
> >
> >
> > I don't expect the impossible - even from you Monica! But my
> > mentioning the early French connection was the link to
> intabulations in
> > France around the same dates as the Italian sources you listed
ie
> up to
> > the 1620s. In short, the pre-Corbetta days. The unfamiliarity
of
> the
> > strummed style in this period surely led, with true gallic
> > systemisation, to the perceived need to intabulate precisely
(or as
> > precisely as they cld manage) the manner of strumming. Whereas
it
> seems
> > to me that with local familiarity of the instrument in Italy
(and a
> > more relaxed, rather than procrustean, Italian approach) there
was
> not
> > such a need for precise intabulations. Speculative of course,
but
> hence
> > my remark even at this stage......
> >
> > Martyn
> > --- On Tue, 16/3/10, Monica Hall <[8][15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[9][16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[10][17]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[11][18]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Tuesday, 16 March, 2010, 9:17
> >
> > Yes - but that is still to come...
> >
> > I am planning to move on to Corbetta next and that leads into
> French
> > tablature and French sources.
> >
> > But it all takes time......
> >
> > Monica
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: [3]Martyn Hodgson
> >
> > To: [4]Monica Hall ; [5]Vihuela Dmth
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:04 AM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages
> >
> > Dear Monica,
> >
> > As ever all very good stuff thank you. The precise
translations
> (and
> > uncertainties) are particularly helpful and I especially
welcome
> the
> > inclusion of songs with guitar - a popular contemporary form
which,
> it
> > seems to me, is much neglected nowadays. Perhaps, to show a
fuller
> and
> > trans-national picture, it might also be useful to include the
(if
> > rather pedestrian) settings by French composers (eg Moulinie,
> Pierre
> > Ballard 1629) which are more specific about strums (in terms of
> which
> > courses to sound etc) and could support our interpretation of
the
> > Italian alfabeto settings.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> > --- On Mon, 15/3/10, Monica Hall
<[12][19]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[13][20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Web pages
> > To: "Vihuelalist" <[14][21]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Monday, 15 March, 2010, 21:03
> >
> > I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page -
> > [1]www.monicahall.co.uk
> > It all forms part of my project with the title "The baroque
> guitar
> > made
> > simple" and it consists of translations of the instructions
to
> the
> > player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna,
> Sanseverino
> > and
> > Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate
> section
> > on
> > alfabeto songs.
> > There is a general introduction and then the pages about
> Foscarini
> > and
> > Bartolotti follow on.
> > Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received.
> > I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The
books
> do
> > throw
> > up quite a lot of interesting background details. For
example
> > Colonna
> > and Sanseverino both dedicated books to the Milanese
nobleman
> Conde
> > Iulio Borromeo who was related to Saint Charles Borromeo
and
> > Colonna
> > says he was living in Iulio Cesare's household when he
composed
> his
> > pieces.
> > There is more to these books than meets the eye.
> > cheers
> > Monica
> > --
> > References
> > 1. [6][15][22]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [7][16][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.ht
ml
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> >
> [17][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 2.
> [18][25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 3.
> >
> [19][26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 4.
> [20][27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 5.
> [21][28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 6. [22][29]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
> > 7.
[23][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
>
[31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 2.
[32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 3.
[33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 4.
[34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 5.
[35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 6.
>
[36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 7.
[37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 8.
[38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 9.
[39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 10.
>
[40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 11.
[41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 12.
[42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 13.
[43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 14.
[44]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 15. [45]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
> 16. [46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 17.
>
[47]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 18.
[48]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 19.
>
[49]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 20.
[50]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 21.
[51]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 22. [52]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
> 23. [53]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
29. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
33. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
34. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
37. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
38. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
39. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
40. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
41. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
42. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
44. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
45. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
46. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
47. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
48. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
49. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
50. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
51. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
52. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
53. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
