Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this "trill" is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express that note every time. Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can inquire into the sources for this interesting little trill. cud __________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Stuart, Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ but I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, required by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of strum requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered to?). And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous Allemandes which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke executed by the middle and first finger being well seperated and strumming upwards). I think the Roncalli 'strum' is a red herring!: in fact for this chord Roncalli employs the well recognised guitar sign also used in contemporary tiorba tablatures for an extended arpeggio. But Chris's use of a flamenco strum certainly gave rise to this interesting exchange..... regards Martyn --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Stuart Walsh <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: From: Stuart Walsh <[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: "Monica Hall" <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Vihuelalist" <[5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 18:50 On 17/04/2011 17:07, Monica Hall wrote: > Well - before we start to discuss this... it might be helpful to have > English translations of what Corbetta says in the preface - and to have to > hand the music. The French preface is slightly different for the Italian > > French Preface > > You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone [p.72] > where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be used > for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see four > notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger descending, and then > after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a very quick > beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb following > the example which you will see there. > > In another chaconne [p.75] there is another batterie which I have printed > previously (desia). And because it has the gift of pleasing, I wanted to > place it here, where you will see that there are six strokes in the form of > quavers. You will play four [quavers] on the first, second and third > strings carrying the hand downwards; after you will make the other two > strokes on the two fourth and fifth strings carrying the hand upwards > without touching the others; after changing the fingering [of the left hand] > you do the same with the other six. Changing the fingers for the next four > which follow, you will strike the first chord a little strongly and the > other three very sweetly. You will play the others in the same way changing > the fingering as you commence the first of each six. This is why you will > find an "f" that indicates that you strike rather strongly on the first > stroke and in this way the batterie will be more delicate. > > Italian Preface > > You will see an example of a repicco placed in a ciaccona [on p.72], where > the longer tail to the note signifies the thumb; having already begun with > the fingers [i.e. played the chord once with all four fingers], then do the > same, upwards with the thumb, making the same upwards. Observe that the > four tied notes signify that one must first make the note with second finger > and then with the first close to it, and thus again as upstrokes at a > quicker tempo, and continue with the fingers and thumb. > > In another next ciaccona [on p.75] you will see another repicco already > placed in the press where to confusion I have place the same more perfect > thing. Where you see six quaver strokes, play four of them from the third > course downwards, and moving the hand make the next two strokes on the other > two courses, the first and second i.e. 5th & 4th], without touching the > others [1st , 2nd & 3rd]. After changing the fingers on the frets, play in > the same way for the other six quavers, and changing the fingers at the next > four, strike the first quaver loudly, and the other three softly. Do the > same on changing the fingers at the other [groups of four] until the first > six begin again. Where you find an f this means play the first of the four > beats loudly, and thus you will achieve a beautiful repicco. > > Marchetti's exlanation of the repicco is much simpler... > > The repicco is made giving four strokes, that is two down and two up. The first stroke is played downwards with the middle finger and the second down with the thumb; the third stroke is played upwards with the thumb and the fourth up with the index finger playing however [with the index finger] only the cantino, or first course. One repicco equals two strokes. > > > > Over to you now... > > > > Monica > And Monica has translated Foscarini's instructions on playing the Trillo, Picco and Repicco in her essay 'Giovanni Paulo Foscarini: Plagiarist or Pioneer? (at the very end) [1][6]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ (and there is another translation of Foscarini in Tyler's 'The Early Guitar'.) And looking at all that, many people (like me) probably decide to give up! Maybe the really showy stuff is for some alfabeto and/or for some chaconnes/passaccales rather than general application in mixed tablatures? Taro Takeuchi has evolved some impressive sounding strumming techniques and he has not used flamenco techniques. I was interested in Chris's first chord in the Roncall Preludio because it sounds quite different from other strums I've heard. Stuart > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: "Vihuela Dmth" <[3][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Cc: "Chris Despopoulos" <[4][9]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>; "Early Guitar Dmth" > <[5][10]early-gui...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:57 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones > > >> >> To Vihuela (early guitar) list: >> >> The aside by Chris on the 'trill' he was taught to execute raises an >> important issue not, I think, much discussed: the precise manner of >> strumming used by the Old Ones. >> >> The repertoire of strumming styles used by players of the 'baroque' >> guitar these days often seems to me to more related to modern robust >> flamenco play than the precise technique used by earlier players (at >> least based on what they wrote). Chris's description of his strum is, >> of course, similar to the 'repicco' described by Corbetta in his 1671 >> collection (NB bourdon on 4th course!). Translation of extract >> '....Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note with the >> middle finger then with the index and then the same as upstroke' (I >> hope this is accurate if not a a literal translation........). That an >> experienced player Stuart thought it a new (to him) style of strumming >> may perhaps illustrate how many of us (me included!) fail to adhere >> always to the earlier instructions. >> >> Incidentally, I think to call it a trill (or more correctly 'trillo') >> as Chris was told, is perhaps wrong: my understanding of this term is >> that it is a strum ornament executed by the index alone not by two >> fingers or more. >> >> Yrs in exectation of a response or two >> >> Martyn >> >> >> >> --- On Sat, 16/4/11, Chris Despopoulos <[6][11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> From: Chris Despopoulos <[7][12]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones >> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[8][13]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> >> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[9][14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 20:19 >> >> Hi Stuart... Thanks >> The effect on that A (er G) chord was taught to me in a class of >> rasgueados for baroque guitar... They called it a trill. >> Basically, >> it's alternating up/down strokes between two fingers. If U is up >> and D >> is down, then the gesture is: >> Da, Di, Ua, Ui -- repeated for the duration of the note. Yes, I use >> the ring finger. But it turns out I use the ring finger for nearly >> every rasgueado. I just have to shrug off any chastisement for >> anachronism there, because I don't know that I could manage it any >> other way. >> __________________________________________________________________ >> From: Stuart Walsh <[1][10][15]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> >> To: Chris Despopoulos <[2][11][16]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> >> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3][12][17]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:55:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] With/Without Bordones >> On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote: >> > I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course -- >> Suite >> > by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared >> to >> > similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the >> earth >> > did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not >> fall >> > from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. >> > I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a >> language >> > with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT >> > syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the >> ability >> to >> > move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of >> his or >> > her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of >> a >> piece >> > I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing >> earth-shattering. I >> may >> > try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be >> thorough. >> > (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two >> > courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully >> re-entrant >> > tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal >> preference. >> > If you're interested, you can hear the results at: >> > [1][1][4][13][18]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ >> > Cheers cud >> > >> > -- >> Chris >> You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the D >> course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or more >> depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third >> course. >> How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the first >> bar >> of the Roncalli Prelude? >> Stuart. >> > References >> > >> > 1. [2][5][14][19]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ >> > >> > >> > To get on or off this list see list information at >> > [3][6][15][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >> -- >> References >> 1. [7][16][21]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ >> 2. [8][17][22]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ >> 3. [9][18][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. [19][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlworld.c om >> 2. >> [20][25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss @yah [26]oo.com >> 3. [21][27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou th.e du >> 4. [22][28]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ >> 5. [23][29]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ >> 6. [24][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 7. [25][31]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ >> 8. [26][32]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ >> 9. [27][33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > > -- References 1. [34]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. [35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk 3. [36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e du 4. [37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@yah oo.com 5. [38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=early-guitar@cs.dartmo uth.edu 6. [39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@yah oo.com 7. [40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@yah oo.com 8. [41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 9. [42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e du 10. [43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 11. [44]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@yah oo.com 12. [45]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e du 13. [46]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 14. [47]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 15. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 16. [49]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 17. [50]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 18. [51]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. [52]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 20. [53]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@yah oo.com 21. [54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e du 22. [55]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 23. [56]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 24. [57]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 25. [58]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 26. [59]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 27. 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