Well... Now to show how far off base I was. I looked over my notes (finally), and found that it was neither trino, tillo, nor trill. It was indeed called a tremolo! Apologies to all for any confusion *that* may have caused. Also, I see in my notes that i and m are indicated, but that for those of us who had trouble, i and a might be easier and achieve the same effect. I seem to have adopted the i and a -- an injury to my hand results in a tendon burn if I try too much to perfect this with i and m. Again, apologies to all for my sloppiness! cud __________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 8:21:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Well trino and trillo are two different things - but I can understand how they might get muddled up. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos" <[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 11:36 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones > Dear Martyn... > Well, I called this thing a trill -- the term "tillo" never passed my > lips (or fingers, I guess). I understood it as "trill", sitting in a > class given in another language... And my hearing has deteriorated > with the years, I might add. I thought the word was "trino", which I > believe is "trill" in Spanish. In that formulation alone I see at > least three opportunities for error... Does trino = trill? Did he say > trino or trillo? Does trino = trillo? Did I play the thing right? > You give me far too much credit! And indeed, I hope to inquire about > the sources... > Anyway, I had hoped to open up this line of discussion. I'm glad for > it, and hope to learn as a result! Many thanks to all... > cud > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: Chris Despopoulos <[5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > Cc: Vihuelalist <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 6:01:50 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones > Dear Chris, > I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and > with > care and reference to the sources. > Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal > assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the > tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told > this > strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs > more than the index finger alone..... > best wishes > Martyn > --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos > <[1][7]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > From: Chris Despopoulos <[2][8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without > Bordones > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Monica Hall" > <[4][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Stuart Walsh" > <[5][11]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[6][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12 > Allow me a few points: > I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. > Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of > any > flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling > continuation > of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed > by > an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. > That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this > "trill" is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the > wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. > Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand > technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. > So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of > strums. > I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what > can > happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand > is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play > hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, > you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun > intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but > your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will > exquisitely express that note every time. > Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can > inquire > into the sources for this interesting little trill. > cud > __________________________________________________________________ > From: Martyn Hodgson <[7][13]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: Monica Hall <[8][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; Stuart Walsh > <[9][15]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > Cc: Vihuelalist <[10][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without > Bordones > Dear Stuart, > Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm > sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ > but > I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. > I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, > required > by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of > strum > requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered > to?). > And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous > Allemandes > which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke > executed > by the middle and first finger being well seperated and strumming > upwards). > I think the Roncalli 'strum' is a red herring!: in fact for this > chord > Roncalli employs the well recognised guitar sign also used in > contemporary tiorba tablatures for an extended arpeggio. But > Chris's > use of a flamenco strum certainly gave rise to this interesting > exchange..... > regards > Martyn > --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Stuart Walsh <[1][11][17]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > wrote: > From: Stuart Walsh <[2][12][18]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was > With/Without > Bordones > To: "Monica Hall" <[3][13][19]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4][14][20]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, > "Vihuelalist" > <[5][15][21]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 18:50 > On 17/04/2011 17:07, Monica Hall wrote: > > Well - before we start to discuss this... it might be helpful to > have > > English translations of what Corbetta says in the preface - and > to > have to > > hand the music. The French preface is slightly different for the > Italian > > > > French Preface > > > > You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de > chacone > [p.72] > > where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb > should > be used > > for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when > you > see four > > notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger > descending, > and then > > after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a > very > quick > > beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb > following > > the example which you will see there. > > > > In another chaconne [p.75] there is another batterie which I have > printed > > previously (desia). And because it has the gift of pleasing, I > wanted to > > place it here, where you will see that there are six strokes in > the > form of > > quavers. You will play four [quavers] on the first, second and > third > > strings carrying the hand downwards; after you will make the > other > two > > strokes on the two fourth and fifth strings carrying the hand > upwards > > without touching the others; after changing the fingering [of the > left hand] > > you do the same with the other six. Changing the fingers for the > next > four > > which follow, you will strike the first chord a little strongly > and > the > > other three very sweetly. You will play the others in the same > way > changing > > the fingering as you commence the first of each six. This is why > you > will > > find an "f" that indicates that you strike rather strongly on the > first > > stroke and in this way the batterie will be more delicate. > > > > Italian Preface > > > > You will see an example of a repicco placed in a ciaccona [on > p.72], > where > > the longer tail to the note signifies the thumb; having already > begun with > > the fingers [i.e. played the chord once with all four fingers], > then > do the > > same, upwards with the thumb, making the same upwards. Observe > that > the > > four tied notes signify that one must first make the note with > second > finger > > and then with the first close to it, and thus again as upstrokes > at > a > > quicker tempo, and continue with the fingers and thumb. > > > > In another next ciaccona [on p.75] you will see another repicco > already > > placed in the press where to confusion I have place the same more > perfect > > thing. Where you see six quaver strokes, play four of them from > the > third > > course downwards, and moving the hand make the next two strokes > on > the other > > two courses, the first and second i.e. 5th & 4th], without > touching > the > > others [1st , 2nd & 3rd]. After changing the fingers on the > frets, > play in > > the same way for the other six quavers, and changing the fingers > at > the next > > four, strike the first quaver loudly, and the other three softly. > Do > the > > same on changing the fingers at the other [groups of four] until > the > first > > six begin again. Where you find an f this means play the first > of > the four > > beats loudly, and thus you will achieve a beautiful repicco. > > > > Marchetti's exlanation of the repicco is much simpler... > > > > The repicco is made giving four strokes, that is two down and two > up. The first stroke is played downwards with the middle finger > and > the second down with the thumb; the third stroke is played upwards > with the thumb and the fourth up with the index finger playing > however > [with the index finger] only the cantino, or first course. One > repicco equals two strokes. > > > > > > > > Over to you now... > > > > > > > > Monica > > > And Monica has translated Foscarini's instructions on playing the > Trillo, Picco and Repicco in her essay 'Giovanni Paulo Foscarini: > Plagiarist or Pioneer? (at the very end) > [1][6][16][22]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ > (and there is another translation of Foscarini in Tyler's 'The > Early > Guitar'.) > And looking at all that, many people (like me) probably decide to > give > up! Maybe the really showy stuff is for some alfabeto and/or for > some > chaconnes/passaccales rather than general application in mixed > tablatures? > Taro Takeuchi has evolved some impressive sounding strumming > techniques > and he has not used flamenco techniques. > I was interested in Chris's first chord in the Roncall Preludio > because > it sounds quite different from other strums I've heard. > Stuart > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" > <[2][7][17][23]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > > To: "Vihuela Dmth" <[3][8][18][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Cc: "Chris Despopoulos" <[4][9][19][25]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>; > "Early > Guitar Dmth" > > <[5][10][20][26]early-gui...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:57 AM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without > Bordones > > > > > >> > >> To Vihuela (early guitar) list: > >> > >> The aside by Chris on the 'trill' he was taught to execute > raises > an > >> important issue not, I think, much discussed: the precise > manner > of > >> strumming used by the Old Ones. > >> > >> The repertoire of strumming styles used by players of the > 'baroque' > >> guitar these days often seems to me to more related to modern > robust > >> flamenco play than the precise technique used by earlier > players > (at > >> least based on what they wrote). Chris's description of his > strum > is, > >> of course, similar to the 'repicco' described by Corbetta in > his > 1671 > >> collection (NB bourdon on 4th course!). Translation of extract > >> '....Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note > with > the > >> middle finger then with the index and then the same as > upstroke' > (I > >> hope this is accurate if not a a literal translation........). > That an > >> experienced player Stuart thought it a new (to him) style of > strumming > >> may perhaps illustrate how many of us (me included!) fail to > adhere > >> always to the earlier instructions. > >> > >> Incidentally, I think to call it a trill (or more correctly > 'trillo') > >> as Chris was told, is perhaps wrong: my understanding of this > term > is > >> that it is a strum ornament executed by the index alone not by > two > >> fingers or more. > >> > >> Yrs in exectation of a response or two > >> > >> Martyn > >> > >> > >> > >> --- On Sat, 16/4/11, Chris Despopoulos > <[6][11][21][27]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> From: Chris Despopoulos > <[7][12][22][28]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones > >> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[8][13][23][29]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > >> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[9][14][24][30]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >> Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 20:19 > >> > >> Hi Stuart... Thanks > >> The effect on that A (er G) chord was taught to me in a > class > of > >> rasgueados for baroque guitar... They called it a trill. > >> Basically, > >> it's alternating up/down strokes between two fingers. If U > is > up > >> and D > >> is down, then the gesture is: > >> Da, Di, Ua, Ui -- repeated for the duration of the note. > Yes, > I use > >> the ring finger. But it turns out I use the ring finger > for > nearly > >> every rasgueado. I just have to shrug off any chastisement > for > >> anachronism there, because I don't know that I could manage > it > any > >> other way. > >> > __________________________________________________________________ > >> From: Stuart Walsh <[1][10][15][25][31]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > >> To: Chris Despopoulos > <[2][11][16][26][32]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > >> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3][12][17][27][33]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >> Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:55:20 PM > >> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] With/Without Bordones > >> On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote: > >> > I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D > course > -- > >> Suite > >> > by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are > compared > >> to > >> > similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, > the > >> earth > >> > did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did > not > >> fall > >> > from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. > >> > I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of > speaking > a > >> language > >> > with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on > differENT > >> > syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the > >> ability > >> to > >> > move the listener rests entirely with the speaker > regardless > of > >> his or > >> > her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some > aspects > of > >> a > >> piece > >> > I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing > >> earth-shattering. I > >> may > >> > try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be > >> thorough. > >> > (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on > two > >> > courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to > fully > >> re-entrant > >> > tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal > >> preference. > >> > If you're interested, you can hear the results at: > >> > [1][1][4][13][18][28][34]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ > >> > Cheers cud > >> > > >> > -- > >> Chris > >> You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon > on > the D > >> course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, > or > more > >> depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the > third > >> course. > >> How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in > the > first > >> bar > >> of the Roncalli Prelude? > >> Stuart. > >> > References > >> > > >> > 1. [2][5][14][19][29][35]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ > >> > > >> > > >> > To get on or off this list see list information at > >> > > > [3][6][15][20][30][36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index .htm > l > >> > > >> -- > >> References > >> 1. [7][16][21][31][37]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ > >> 2. [8][17][22][32][38]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ > >> 3. > > [9][18][23][33][39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index. html > >> > >> -- > >> > >> References > >> > >> 1. > > [19][24][34][40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@nt lwor > ld.c > om > >> 2. > >> > > [20][25][35][41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulo s_ch > riss > @yah > [26][36]oo.com > >> 3. > > [21][27][37][42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs .dar > tmou > th.e > du > >> 4. [22][28][38][43]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ > >> 5. [23][29][39][44]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ > >> 6. > [24][30][40][45]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> 7. [25][31][41][46]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ > >> 8. [26][32][42][47]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ > >> 9. > [27][33][43][48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > References > 1. 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http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 100. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@yah 101. http://oo.com/ 102. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e 103. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 104. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 105. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 106. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 107. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 108. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 109. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 110. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo.c 111. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth 112. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@ya 113. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=early-guitar@cs.dartm 114. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@ya 115. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@ya 116. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 117. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth 118. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 119. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@ya 120. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth 121. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 122. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 123. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 124. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 125. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 126. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 127. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 128. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@ya 129. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth 130. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 131. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 132. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 133. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 134. 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