----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Lex Eisenhardt"
<eisenha...@planet.nl>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for three
voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar
alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel Clavicembalo, et
altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied by a
solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found for
just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do
think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso continuo
part in this case.
Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the Kapsberger
villanelle. However I don't think that it is correct to call the guitar
alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it is clearly not a
realization of the bass part. Even if the alfabeto actually matches the
bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the bass part or the harmony in the
correct inversions. It won't usually even reflect obvious harmonic
progessions such as a 4-3 suspension. And as far as the various
instruments mentioned are concerned I think these are alternatives rather
than intended all to play together.
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex Eisenhardt"
<eisenha...@planet.nl>
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2]eisenha...@planet.nl>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross
purposes. I
don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a
collection of
solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice part.
What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal music
in
several parts - (which in the context I think it is appropriate to
refer to
as polyphony).
The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany
Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have had a
fit if
the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming continuously
throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This
is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only
likely
accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or
other
bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when
accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the choruses in
the
Intermedii.
In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs with
elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen today.
Monica
> Dear Lex,
>
> Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
> produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no
reason to
> suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems
unlikely
> however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of
the
> instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
> Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations
on
> the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
>
> rgds
>
> Martyn
>
> --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt <[4]eisenha...@planet.nl>
wrote:
>
> From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
> guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> To: "Monica Hall" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
>
> >> Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the
chitarra
> spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
> >> But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about
figured
> bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
> 'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the
> guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have
considered
> the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not
> even performed on the guitar.
> >
> > I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way.
> Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone,
> Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are
capable
> of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to
> suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the
> point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be
> strumming away in there!
> Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a
> playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable
and
> sonorous.'
> The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the
> cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more
than
> one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered
> possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also
this
> was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and
> chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely
> however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of
the
> instrument, was intended
> Lex
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
