I thought one of the significant points of the period was a transition
to harmonic vs voice thinking. And that the guitar was well
positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition. So whether we
call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider
alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization. I
look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic progressions.
The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
different from what I would choose to do.
One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering, addition
or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation. The Sanz book is
viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
exactly as written, for example. With Roncali I was chastised for not
improvising. So why would alfabetos be any different? But does that
make them any less realizations of the bass? If we're talking about
pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
lowest
note on the guitar: I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
this.
Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also
applies
to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
> exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
> course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
theorbo
> continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
> because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower
register
> (or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than
some
> of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
> anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low
Eb
> will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second
and
> third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E
elswhere
> in the work.
I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very
early
17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto
accompaniments.
>
> A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the
bass
> note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the
guitar
has
> bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but
if
not
> then elsewhere in the full chord.
The point is that it that it may not do. The "bass" is the lowest
part.
We, and others, have often pointed
> out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
> outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather
than
a
> contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this
isn't a
> realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
> harmonies implied/required by the bass.
That may your interpretation of realizing a basso continuo part but I
don't
think that it is anyone elses.
Of course, a melodic bass
> instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the
discussion
> sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass
with
> the guitar.......
I think I made it quite clear when we discussed this before that I do
not
think that the separate bass line is intended to be performed with
the
alfabeto - indead if it were in some instances it would create
problems.
Here is his observation "Note that in some places
> you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line.
This
> is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in
as
> many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the
> requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the
> other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances."
> I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect.
It may be a valid realization depending on the way you chose to
define
realization but it is not a realization of the bass line.
Regards
Monica
.
> --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to
> earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> <[1][5][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[2][6][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][7][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Lex
Eisenhardt"
> <[4][8][12]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and
for
> three
> > voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the
guitar
> > alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel
> Clavicembalo, et
> > altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs
accompanied
> by a
> > solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options
found
> for
> > just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I
do
> > think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso
> continuo
> > part in this case.
> Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the
> Kapsberger villanelle. However I don't think that it is correct
to
> call the guitar alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it
is
> clearly not a realization of the bass part. Even if the alfabeto
> actually matches the bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the
bass
> part or the harmony in the correct inversions. It won't usually
even
> reflect obvious harmonic progessions such as a 4-3
suspension. And as
> far as the various instruments mentioned are concerned I think
these
> are alternatives rather than intended all to play together.
> > Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have
expected a
> > strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed,
is
> there
> > even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
> > fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
> Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy
perhaps
> could tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
> > We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about')
often
> > found in some modern performances of solo songs.
> Yes indeed!
> Monica
> >
> > --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall
<[5][9][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[6][10][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
> to
> > earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][11][15]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8][12][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex
Eisenhardt"
> > <[9][13][17]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[1][10][14][18]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][11][15][19]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][12][16][20]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier
> > question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross
> > purposes. I
> > don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a
> > collection of
> > solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the
voice
> part.
> > What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal
> music
> > in
> > several parts - (which in the context I think it is
appropriate to
> > refer to
> > as polyphony).
> > The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to
accompany
> > Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have
had
> a
> > fit if
> > the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming
> continuously
> > throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This
> > is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the
only
> > likely
> > accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo
or
> > other
> > bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
> > The other instruments are more likely to have been involved
when
> > accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the
> choruses in
> > the
> > Intermedii.
> > In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo
songs
> with
> > elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen
> today.
> > Monica
> > > Dear Lex,
> > >
> > > Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and
thrashing
> about
> > > produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see
no
> > reason to
> > > suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It
seems
> > unlikely
> > > however that a chordal style, continuously including all
> courses of
> > the
> > > instrument, was intended'). For example, song
accompaniments
> with
> > > Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo
> realisations
> > on
> > > the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I
mentioned.
> > >
> > > rgds
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt
> <[4][13][17][21]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5][14][18][22]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was
Re:
> > Agazzari
> > > guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > > To: "Monica Hall" <[6][15][19][23]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist"
<[7][16][20][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
> > >
> > > >> Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the
> > chitarra
> > > spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
> > > >> But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really
about
> > figured
> > > bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of
the
> > > 'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style
of
> the
> > > guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have
> > considered
> > > the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the
bass is
> not
> > > even performed on the guitar.
> > > >
> > > > I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a
> way.
> > > Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the
> Lirone,
> > > Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which
are
> > capable
> > > of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no
reason
> to
> > > suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what
would
> the
> > > point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It
could
> be
> > > strumming away in there!
> > > Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which,
in
> a
> > > playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more
> agreeable
> > and
> > > sonorous.'
> > > The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such
as
> the
> > > cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played
more
> > than
> > > one voice at a time, although single line should also be
> considered
> > > possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected
that
> also
> > this
> > > was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the
cetera
> and
> > > chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems
> unlikely
> > > however that a chordal style, continuously including all
> courses of
> > the
> > > instrument, was intended
> > > Lex
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > >
[1][8][17][21][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/i
ndex.htm
> l
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1.
>
[9][18][22][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
>
[19][23][27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 2.
>
[20][24][28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@pla
net.nl
> > 3.
>
[21][25][29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 4.
>
[22][26][30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@pla
net.nl
> > 5.
>
[23][27][31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@pla
net.nl
> > 6.
>
[24][28][32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 7.
>
[25][29][33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 8.
[26][30][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 9.
[27][31][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
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o.co
.uk
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--
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o.uk
51.
[113]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
52.
[114]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.
edu
53.
[115]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
54.
[116]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
55.
[117]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
56.
[118]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.
edu
57. [119]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
58. [120]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
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2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
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5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
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8. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
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89. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
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96. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
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98. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
99. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
100. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
101. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
102. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
103. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
104. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
105. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
106. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
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109. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
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113. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
114. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
115. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
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120. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
