Hello- I'm almost too late into the conversation, but this topic does pertain to one of my current projects, so I'll put it out there.... It seems to me that the debate centers on whether or not the simple alfabeto chords will suffice as an accompaniment, without additional instruments to play the written bass line. It is my opinion that some composers (although perhaps not all) would have been quite content to hear their secular songs accompanied by the guitar alone, and that the alfabeto framework provided would give an adequate harmonic structure for the voice. However, I have had very little success in finding any recordings of performances of early 17th century secular song that doesn't truck out a veritable football team of continuo players! I am not immune to the charms of the hammered dulcimer, but I do find it difficult to understand how these interpretations could ever be considered to be closer to what Grandi had in mind than what I have been doing myself as a singer and guitarist. So the question remains: Is the accompaniment provided by the alfabeto symbols lacking? And, to my mind even more importantly: Is the freedom that results from a self-accompanied performance (that simply wouldn't be possible with a 3-4 member continuo group) worth enough to outweigh any perceived shortcomings in the "realization"?
I have recorded three songs as a demo for a grant application, and have posted them on a hidden page of my personal website, for those who might be interested in this debate. One aria each by Grandi, Landi, and Kapsberger, with scores and translations included. The link is: [1]http://www.budroach.com/baroque_guitar.html?r=20111216104205 I welcome your comments (either here or on my contact page) and thank you for your scholarship! Bud Roach --- On Fri, 12/16/11, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: "Chris Despopoulos" <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Received: Friday, December 16, 2011, 9:17 AM Thanks Chris. Your observation that '...whether we call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass..', certainly coincides with my view on guitar basso continuo using alfabeto. And, it seems to me, reflects Marini's position too. regards martyn --- On Fri, 16/12/11, Chris Despopoulos <[2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos <[3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Monica Hall" <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 14:08 I thought one of the significant points of the period was a transition to harmonic vs voice thinking. And that the guitar was well positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition. So whether we call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass. Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization. I look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today, with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic progressions. The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very different from what I would choose to do. One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ. Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering, addition or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation. The Sanz book is viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played exactly as written, for example. With Roncali I was chastised for not improvising. So why would alfabetos be any different? But does that make them any less realizations of the bass? If we're talking about pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from? cud __________________________________________________________________ From: Martyn Hodgson <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: Monica Hall <[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} Thanks Monica, It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the lowest note on the guitar: I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on this. Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also applies to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later. regards Martyn --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall <[1][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <[2][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17 Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass > exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of > course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many theorbo > continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass > because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower register > (or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than some > of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke > anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low Eb > will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second and > third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E elswhere > in the work. I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very early 17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto accompaniments. > > A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the bass > note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the guitar has > bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but if not > then elsewhere in the full chord. The point is that it that it may not do. The "bass" is the lowest part. We, and others, have often pointed > out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves > outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather than a > contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this isn't a > realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the > harmonies implied/required by the bass. That may your interpretation of realizing a basso continuo part but I don't think that it is anyone elses. Of course, a melodic bass > instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the discussion > sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass with > the guitar....... I think I made it quite clear when we discussed this before that I do not think that the separate bass line is intended to be performed with the alfabeto - indead if it were in some instances it would create problems. Here is his observation "Note that in some places > you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This > is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as > many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the > requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the > other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances." > I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect. It may be a valid realization depending on the way you chose to define realization but it is not a realization of the bass line. Regards Monica . > --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall <[1][5][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[2][6][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to > earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][7][15]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37 > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" > <[1][5][9][17]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: "Monica Hall" <[2][6][10][18]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][7][11][19]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Lex Eisenhardt" > <[4][8][12][20]eisenha...@planet.nl> > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to > earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > > The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for > three > > voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar > > alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel > Clavicembalo, et > > altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied > by a > > solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found > for > > just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do > > think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso > continuo > > part in this case. > Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the > Kapsberger villanelle. However I don't think that it is correct to > call the guitar alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it is > clearly not a realization of the bass part. Even if the alfabeto > actually matches the bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the bass > part or the harmony in the correct inversions. It won't usually even > reflect obvious harmonic progessions such as a 4-3 suspension. And as > far as the various instruments mentioned are concerned I think these > are alternatives rather than intended all to play together. > > Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a > > strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is > there > > even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern > > fashionable performances of South American sacred settings? > Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps > could tell us more about that if he is not too busy. > > We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often > > found in some modern performances of solo songs. > Yes indeed! > Monica > > > > --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall <[5][9][13][21]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > > > From: Monica Hall <[6][10][14][22]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return > to > > earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][11][15][23]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8][12][16][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex Eisenhardt" > > <[9][13][17][25]eisenha...@planet.nl> > > Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][10][14][18][26]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > > To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][11][15][19][27]eisenha...@planet.nl> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][12][16][20][28]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to > earlier > > question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > > Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross > > purposes. I > > don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a > > collection of > > solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice > part. > > What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal > music > > in > > several parts - (which in the context I think it is appropriate to > > refer to > > as polyphony). > > The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany > > Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have had > a > > fit if > > the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming > continuously > > throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This > > is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only > > likely > > accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or > > other > > bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part. > > The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when > > accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the > choruses in > > the > > Intermedii. > > In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs > with > > elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen > today. > > Monica > > > Dear Lex, > > > > > > Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing > about > > > produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no > > reason to > > > suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems > > unlikely > > > however that a chordal style, continuously including all > courses of > > the > > > instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments > with > > > Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo > realisations > > on > > > the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned. > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > Martyn > > > > > > --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt > <[4][13][17][21][29]eisenha...@planet.nl> > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5][14][18][22][30]eisenha...@planet.nl> > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: > > Agazzari > > > guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > > > To: "Monica Hall" <[6][15][19][23][31]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][16][20][24][32]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51 > > > > > > >> Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the > > chitarra > > > spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600. > > > >> But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about > > figured > > > bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the > > > 'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of > the > > > guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have > > considered > > > the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is > not > > > even performed on the guitar. > > > > > > > > I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a > way. > > > Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the > Lirone, > > > Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are > > capable > > > of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason > to > > > suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would > the > > > point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could > be > > > strumming away in there! > > > Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in > a > > > playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more > agreeable > > and > > > sonorous.' > > > The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as > the > > > cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more > > than > > > one voice at a time, although single line should also be > considered > > > possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that > also > > this > > > was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera > and > > > chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems > unlikely > > > however that a chordal style, continuously including all > courses of > > the > > > instrument, was intended > > > Lex > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > [1][8][17][21][25][33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/i ndex.htm > l > > > > > > -- > > > > > > References > > > > > > 1. > [9][18][22][26][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index .html > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > [19][23][27][35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgson martyn@ yahoo.co > .uk > > 2. > [20][24][28][36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha rdt@pla net.nl > > 3. > [21][25][29][37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela @cs.dar tmouth.e > du > > 4. > [22][26][30][38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha rdt@pla net.nl > > 5. > [23][27][31][39]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha rdt@pla net.nl > > 6. > [24][28][32][40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall @tiscal i.co.uk > > 7. > [25][29][33][41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela @cs.dar tmouth.e > du > > 8. [26][30][34][42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 9. [27][31][35][43]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > References > > 1. > [32][36][44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmart yn@yaho o.co .uk > 2. [33][37][45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tis cali.co .uk > 3. [34][38][46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs. dartmou th.e du > 4. [35][39][47]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@ planet. nl > 5. [36][40][48]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tis cali.co .uk > 6. [37][41][49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tis cali.co .uk > 7. > [38][42][50]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmart yn@yaho o.co .uk > 8. [39][43][51]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs. dartmou th.e du > 9. 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