Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many theorbo continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower register (or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than some of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low Eb will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second and third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E elswhere in the work.
A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the bass note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the guitar has bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but if not then elsewhere in the full chord. We, and others, have often pointed out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather than a contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this isn't a realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the harmonies implied/required by the bass. Of course, a melodic bass instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the discussion sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass with the guitar....... Here is his observation "Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances." I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect. regards Martyn . --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Lex Eisenhardt" <[4]eisenha...@planet.nl> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for three > voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar > alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel Clavicembalo, et > altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied by a > solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found for > just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do > think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso continuo > part in this case. Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the Kapsberger villanelle. However I don't think that it is correct to call the guitar alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it is clearly not a realization of the bass part. Even if the alfabeto actually matches the bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the bass part or the harmony in the correct inversions. It won't usually even reflect obvious harmonic progessions such as a 4-3 suspension. And as far as the various instruments mentioned are concerned I think these are alternatives rather than intended all to play together. > Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a > strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is there > even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern > fashionable performances of South American sacred settings? Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps could tell us more about that if he is not too busy. > We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often > found in some modern performances of solo songs. Yes indeed! Monica > > --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to > earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex Eisenhardt" > <[9]eisenha...@planet.nl> > Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][11]eisenha...@planet.nl> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier > question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross > purposes. I > don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a > collection of > solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice part. > What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal music > in > several parts - (which in the context I think it is appropriate to > refer to > as polyphony). > The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany > Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have had a > fit if > the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming continuously > throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This > is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only > likely > accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or > other > bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part. > The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when > accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the choruses in > the > Intermedii. > In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs with > elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen today. > Monica > > Dear Lex, > > > > Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about > > produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no > reason to > > suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems > unlikely > > however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of > the > > instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with > > Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations > on > > the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned. > > > > rgds > > > > Martyn > > > > --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt <[4][13]eisenha...@planet.nl> > wrote: > > > > From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5][14]eisenha...@planet.nl> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: > Agazzari > > guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > > To: "Monica Hall" <[6][15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51 > > > > >> Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the > chitarra > > spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600. > > >> But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about > figured > > bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the > > 'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the > > guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have > considered > > the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not > > even performed on the guitar. > > > > > > I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way. > > Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone, > > Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are > capable > > of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to > > suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the > > point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be > > strumming away in there! > > Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a > > playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable > and > > sonorous.' > > The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the > > cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more > than > > one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered > > possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also > this > > was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and > > chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely > > however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of > the > > instrument, was intended > > Lex > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [1][8][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm l > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. [9][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > References > > 1. [19]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk > 2. [20]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl > 3. [21]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e du > 4. [22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl > 5. [23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl > 6. [24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 7. [25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e du > 8. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 9. [27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 21. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 27. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html