With all due respect, I think when we start to assess fingerings (or any other performance issue) purely on the basis of our own technical abilities, we impose our own idiosyncrasies on the subject.
That is not what we are doing here.
fingering, I'm simply pointing out that, from a purely practical point of view, what is expedient in one situation might not work in another -
That is precisely the point. We are/were discussing a very specific situation
here - the fingering of 5-part alfabeto chords in the context of music which is entirely or predominantly strummed.
flexibility tends to be an asset. My question was, when viewed collectively, do the sources actually indicate a preference, and if so, is it on the grounds of what seems most expedient, or are there other reasons?
Yes - alfabeto sources indicate a clear preference which is based on what works best in practice in the context. Many of the alfabeto sources include the fingering and it is always the same. Even the table of chords in Sanz and Murcia's Resumen de accompanar give the standard fingering for the alfabeto chords. There are no advantages to doing anything different. Perhaps Murcia is a bad example (although I have to admit, I'm
don't really see why).
Because in the context of what we were discussing he is largely irrelevant as his music is in mixed style, indeed predominantly punteado. Best Monica
Best, Ralph ----- Original Message ----- From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:37 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER <rkcma...@shaw.ca> Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > I don't think that it is particularly convenient or > good practice to > finger the chord in the way you > suggest. It is quite awkward as both > 2nd and 4th fingers are in the way. I do > wonder whether you have > actually tried it in conjunction with other > chords. Some of > the chords are quite difficult to finger and > playing sequences of them > in quick succession does require a lot of > practice. The fingering of > them is given in many of the sources and is the > optimum method. > > > > Murcia is a different kettle of fish altogether and > I think it would > not be wise to get involved with that. > > > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [1]RALPH MAIER > > To: [2]Monica Hall > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > The chord I'm referring to - the > g chord with a doubled 3rd (20003) > - can easily be fingered using 1 > and 3, so I'm not sure I follow. > > As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in > Murcia, for > example, where my inclination would be to use 4 > instead of his > recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring > specifically to > passagework. Often times such fingerings in the > sources raise > interesting questions regarding articulation, > especially when working > under the assumption that they would have shared > contemporary tastes > regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they > would - on the > contrary). On the other hand, it could also be > something as simple as > personal preferences. > > RM > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > To: RALPH MAIER <rkcma...@shaw.ca> > Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > If anything I would say there is a definite > preference for using > > the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears > on this > > topic. Whichever of the two chord > fingerings you > > chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd > fret with the > > 4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it. > > > > Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th > finger for > > passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into > chords. > > > Monica > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: RALPH MAIER > > To: Monica Hall > > Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on > Baroque Guitar > > > > > > Interesting thread. Just a thought, > and I'm obviously > > spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything > that might be > > gleaned from this observation in regards to the > use of the > > fourth finger in general. Is there anything in > the sources that > > might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Monica Hall > <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Date: > Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on > Baroque Guitar > > To: Martyn Hodgson > <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: > Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > > > Well - I pointed out in my original > message that > > the > > > earliest sources of > > > alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the > Cancionero Bezon - > > actually > > > give the > > > 20003 version. I think that > the reason for this > > is that on > > > the 4-course > > > guitar the equivalent is 0003 and > initially the most > > convenient > > > note on the > > > 5th course was just added. > > > > > > So the real question is why did they > > change? This > > > morning when I was > > > practicing I tried playing Chord A > with an unstopped > > 2nd course > > > in all the > > > relevant places and it just is less > > convenient. The > > > 3rd finger is floating > > > above the fingerboard with nothing > to do. And as > > Stewart > > > pointed out the > > > commonest progression is A - > C , G major/D major > > and > > > stopping the 2nd > > > course at the 3rd fret is more > secure. It > > provides a pivot > > > as you shift > > > from one to the other. It does seem > to me that the > > reason for > > > the change was purely practical. > > > > > > From a musical point of view the > difference in the way > > the two > > > versionssounded seemed negligible > to me. I > > don't > > > think that doubling the 3rd was an > > > issue. > > > > > > I also pointed out that some of the > other chords have > > the 3rd > > > doubled. In particular > the C major chord - > > > B. Nobody seems > bothered about that. > > > > > > Really - I stick by what I have > said. The > > chords are > > > arranged in the way in which they > fit conveniently on > > the fingerboard. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Monica > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > "Martyn Hodgson" > > > <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>To: > "Monica Hall" > > > <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>Cc: > "Vihuelalist" > > > <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>Sent: Monday, September > > 10, 2012 > > > 4:13 PM > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on > Baroque Guitar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Monica, > > > > > > > > When you write > 'The point is > > that the > > > alfabeto chords (and other > > > > chords) are arranged in the > way that most > > conveniently > > > fits them on to > > > > the guitar > fingerboard. The order of the > > notes and > > > which ones are > > > > doubled is determined > by practical > > considerations > > > not by what anyone > > > > may have learnt in their harmony > > course.' > > > your second sentence about > > > > the irrelevance of formal > rules of harmony > > seems to me > > > to accurately > > > > reflect how these chords > probably became established. > > > > > > > > However the first sentence > begs the original > > question: > > > viz. why show > > > > as 20033 rather than > 20003? Here, > > as others > > > have already pointed > > > > out, I really do think > there was some conscious > > decision > > > made (by > > > > strummers before the days > of recorded > > alfabeto) - > > > in my view probably > > > > to duplicate the fifth > rather than the third > > because the > > > latter was > > > > already strong being the > first course struck in > > a > > > downwards strum. > > > > > > > > Also if there is a bourdon > on the fourth course > > (ie the > > > Corbetta/> French tuning > which might reflect an > > earlier > > > practice than generally > > > > recorded - certainly the > four course guitar had > > an > > > octave on the fourth > > > > course) if the 2nd > course were taken open > > you > > > would only have one > > > > string (the higher of the > fifth course) for the > > upper > > > octave fifth but > > > > four strings for the > thirds; in this case > > fingering the 2nd > > > > course gives more equality > between the thirds > > and fifths.... > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall > > > <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Monica Hall > > <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > Subject: > > [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > > > To: "Chris > Despopoulos" > > > <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>> > Cc: > > > "Vihuelalist" > <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > > Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32 > > > > > > > > Well - I think we are > getting a bit bogged down here. > > > > The point is that the > alfabeto chords > > (and other > > > chords) are arranged > > > > in the way that most > > > > conveniently fits them on > to the guitar > > > fingerboard. The order of the > > > > notes > > > > and which ones are doubled > is determined by > > > > practical considerations > not by what anyone may > > have > > > learnt in their > > > > harmony > > > > course. > > > > Most of them can't be > easily be rearranged or > > refingered > > > and in the > > > > context in > > > > which they are used there > is not a lot of point > > in doing > > > so. In what > > > > circumtances would you want > to use one form of > > Chord A > > > rather than > > > > another? > > > > The chords in Sanz' > Labyrinth are the same old > > basic > > > chords played in > > > > different positions on the > fingerboard. > They are > > > not revoiced or > > > > re-arranged in any > way. What Sanz > > has in > > > mind is plaing different > > > > harmonic progressions at > different pitches not > > altering > > > the chords > > > > themselves. > > > > I don't perceive music in > alfabeto as being a > > way of > > > "getting you to > > > > play the guitar" or some > sort of stepping stone > > to doing > > > something> > superior. It is a > > perfectly valid > > > tradition in its own > right. After > > > > all people had been playing > the 4-course guitar > > for > > > years before > > > > alfabeto came on the scene. > Obviously you can > > do things > > > like inserting > > > > 4-3 suspensions and 7th > into the chords and > > adding > > > ornamentation and of > > > > course you can write out > completely different > > chords in > > > tablature.> Improvisation > doesn't mean doing > > something > > > completely out of character. > > > > Monica > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris > > Despopoulos" > > > <[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > > > > To: "Monica Hall" > > <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "David > > > van Ooijen" > > > > <[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > > > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM > > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G > chord on Baroque Guitar > > > > > I have an > opinion -- Giving that > > opinion > > > may open me up to some > > > > > > "clarification", which is why I'm > > giving > > > it. In other words, if > > > > I'm > > > > > wrong about > this, please let me know! > > > > > When playing > the modern guitar, > > I'll > > > choose to add the D on the 2nd > > > > > course (from > high to low) or not, > > at > > > will. Considerations include > > > > > practical (as > Monica stated for > > chord > > > changes), leading notes, or > > > > > general > emphasis within the > > musical > > > context. Everybody learns the > > > > G > > > > > chord > (modern) in various ways, > > and then > > > later sees other people > > > > > playing it > with variations. > > At some > > > point, one tries all the > > > > > variations at > least once. > > > > > My opinion is > that the Alfabeto > > is there > > > to "get you playing the > > > > > > guitar"... Same as > > rudimentary chord > > > books today. See your > > > > typical > > > > > Ukulele book, > for example. > > Sanz > > > expanded on the Alfabeto with his > > > > > Labarinto, > and makes the claim > > that with > > > all these chords you can > > > > now > > > > > compose > whatever variations you > > want > > > (roughly paraphrased from > > > > > > memory). But (again, my > > opinion) > > > this is still a guideline meant > > > > to > > > > > illustrate > the wonderful quality > > of the > > > guitar, the displacement of > > > > > chord forms > to other positions, > > yielding > > > other chords. I believe > > > > > chords, as a > concept, were fairly > > new at > > > the time, and this > > > > Labarinto > > > > > was quite the > innovation. > > > > > Further, my opinion is that you > > will reach > > > a level of playing where > > > > > your taste > dictates your answers > > to these > > > types of questions, in > > > > the > > > > > given > situation. This is > > the level > > > you want to reach, and I think > > > > Sanz > > > > > would want > you to reach it. > > If you > > > don't know how or why to play a > > > > G > > > > > chord, by all > means, use the > > Alfabeto > > > religiously. If you have > > > > moved > > > > > to the next > level, take the > > Alfabeto as a > > > guideline, but add your > > > > own > > > > > flavor to the > music. > > > > I > forget where I read it, and it > > was in > > > the context of interpreting > > > > > Baroque music > on the MODERN > > guitar, but > > > somebody said (again, > > > > > paraphrased > from memory), "In > > that time, > > > any musician who failed to > > > > > improvise on > a piece was a boring > > bird > > > indeed." Something to that > > > > > effect. > (I imagine > > Richelieu fell > > > into that category... But that's > > > > > another topic.) > > > > > cud > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________> > > > > > > From: Monica Hall > > <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > > To: > > David van Ooijen > > > > <[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>> > > > Cc: > > > Vihuelalist > <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 > > 5:23 PM > > > > > Subject: > [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on > > Baroque Guitar > > > > > My ears have > no problem with > > doubling the > > > 3rd. As I pointed out > > > > > Chords B, & > and N all have the > > major 3rd > > > doubled. And the > > > > consonant > > > > > form of chord > L has the minor 3rd > > > doubled. That doesn't seem to > > > > have > > > > > bothered > guitarists in the 17th > > century > > > and it shouldn't bother you > > > > > today either. > > > > > I doubt > whether you have > > encountered the > > > dissonant form of Chord L > > > > in > > > > > your harmony > lessons > either. That is > > > a purely practical device. > > > > > Monica > > > > > ----- > Original Message ----- > > From: "David > > > van Ooijen" > > > > > > <[1][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > > > > > To: "Vihuelalist" > > > <[2][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>> > > > Sent: > > > Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:12 PM > > > > > Subject: > [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on > > Baroque Guitar > > > > > > On 9 > September 2012 23:08, > > Monica Hall > > > > <[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> I don't > think that doubling > > the 3rd is > > > an issue or that what > > > > people > > > > > learn in > > > > > >> their > harmony lessons today is > > > particularly relevant. I doubt > > > > > whether > > > > > >> guitarists > at the beginning of > > the 17th > > > century thought in those > > > > > terms. > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither do > today's guitarists > > who chose > > > for 33002(3), but their > > > > ears > > > > > > tell them > it's the better > > choice. In > > > harmony lessons you just > > > > learn > > > > > to > > > > > > give names > to what your ears > > already > > > told you. In other words, > > > > don't > > > > > > turn the > argument around. > > > > > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ******************************* > > > > > > David van Ooijen > > > > > > > [4][11]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > > > > > [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > > > > ******************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on > or off this list see > > list > > > information at > > > > > > > > > > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > References > > > > > > > > > > 1. > mailto:[13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > > > > 2. mailto:[14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > > > 3. > mailto:[15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > > > > 4. mailto:[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > > > > 5. > [17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > >References > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Espopoulos_chriss@yah oo.com > > 2. > > > > > > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> 3. > > > > > > > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 4. > > > > > > > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > > > 6. > > > > > > > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 7. > > > > > > > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 8. > > > > > > > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 9. > > > > > > > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > > > 11. > > > > > > > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > 13. > > > > > > > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 14. > > > > > > > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > > > 16. > > > > > > > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:rkcma...@shaw.ca > 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
