I feel a need to clarify one thing. In no way was I suggesting that alfabeto playing is somehow inferior to punteado. What I meant is that the alfabeto schema that lays out the fingering for each chord is there to introduce players to the guitar so they can play pieces notated in alfabeto. After becoming accomplished, the player would not refer to the alfabeto schema, but having internalized it, would simply read the music. Same as guitarists do with chord charts today. That's the sense in which I meant the alfabeto is there to get you going... I meant the schema printed at the front of the book. Yes, improvisation must be appropriate. That relies on scholarship -- either your own, or more usually the collective scholarship of many, with helpful guidance from a teacher. That's how moderns have to approach it. In the day, improvisation was guided by the current tastes, written rules, and I can only imagine oral tradition to some degree. But improvisation was part of the music. As such, I can only imagine that while playing alfabeto, a player who had graduated from looking up chords in the schema would have fiddled around a bit. cud __________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:32 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here. The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and which ones are doubled is determined by practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their harmony course. Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered and in the context in which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing so. In what circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A rather than another? The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old basic chords played in different positions on the fingerboard. They are not revoiced or re-arranged in any way. What Sanz has in mind is plaing different harmonic progressions at different pitches not altering the chords themselves. I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a way of "getting you to play the guitar" or some sort of stepping stone to doing something superior. It is a perfectly valid tradition in its own right. After all people had been playing the 4-course guitar for years before alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can do things like inserting 4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and adding ornamentation and of course you can write out completely different chords in tablature. Improvisation doesn't mean doing something completely out of character. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos" <[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "David van Ooijen" <[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > I have an opinion -- Giving that opinion may open me up to some > "clarification", which is why I'm giving it. In other words, if I'm > wrong about this, please let me know! > When playing the modern guitar, I'll choose to add the D on the 2nd > course (from high to low) or not, at will. Considerations include > practical (as Monica stated for chord changes), leading notes, or > general emphasis within the musical context. Everybody learns the G > chord (modern) in various ways, and then later sees other people > playing it with variations. At some point, one tries all the > variations at least once. > My opinion is that the Alfabeto is there to "get you playing the > guitar"... Same as rudimentary chord books today. See your typical > Ukulele book, for example. Sanz expanded on the Alfabeto with his > Labarinto, and makes the claim that with all these chords you can now > compose whatever variations you want (roughly paraphrased from > memory). But (again, my opinion) this is still a guideline meant to > illustrate the wonderful quality of the guitar, the displacement of > chord forms to other positions, yielding other chords. I believe > chords, as a concept, were fairly new at the time, and this Labarinto > was quite the innovation. > Further, my opinion is that you will reach a level of playing where > your taste dictates your answers to these types of questions, in the > given situation. This is the level you want to reach, and I think Sanz > would want you to reach it. If you don't know how or why to play a G > chord, by all means, use the Alfabeto religiously. If you have moved > to the next level, take the Alfabeto as a guideline, but add your own > flavor to the music. > I forget where I read it, and it was in the context of interpreting > Baroque music on the MODERN guitar, but somebody said (again, > paraphrased from memory), "In that time, any musician who failed to > improvise on a piece was a boring bird indeed." Something to that > effect. (I imagine Richelieu fell into that category... But that's > another topic.) > cud > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > To: David van Ooijen <[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > Cc: Vihuelalist <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 5:23 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > My ears have no problem with doubling the 3rd. As I pointed out > Chords B, & and N all have the major 3rd doubled. And the consonant > form of chord L has the minor 3rd doubled. That doesn't seem to have > bothered guitarists in the 17th century and it shouldn't bother you > today either. > I doubt whether you have encountered the dissonant form of Chord L in > your harmony lessons either. That is a purely practical device. > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David van Ooijen" > <[1][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > To: "Vihuelalist" <[2][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:12 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > On 9 September 2012 23:08, Monica Hall <[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > wrote: > >> I don't think that doubling the 3rd is an issue or that what people > learn in > >> their harmony lessons today is particularly relevant. I doubt > whether > >> guitarists at the beginning of the 17th century thought in those > terms. > > > > Neither do today's guitarists who chose for 33002(3), but their ears > > tell them it's the better choice. In harmony lessons you just learn > to > > give names to what your ears already told you. In other words, don't > > turn the argument around. > > > > David > > > > -- ******************************* > > David van Ooijen > > [4][11]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl > > ******************************* > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > 2. mailto:[14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:[15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 4. mailto:[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > 5. [17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 9. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 11. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 14. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 15. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 16. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/