> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> The chord I'm referring to - the g chord with a doubled 3rd
> (20003)
> - can easily be fingered using 1 and 3, so I'm not sure I
follow.
> As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in Murcia, for
> example, where my inclination would be to use 4 instead of his
> recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring specifically to
> passagework. Often times such fingerings in the sources raise
> interesting questions regarding articulation, especially when
> working
> under the assumption that they would have shared contemporary
tastes
> regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they would - on the
> contrary). On the other hand, it could also be something as
simple
> as
> personal preferences.
> RM
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> To: RALPH MAIER <[2][6]rkcma...@shaw.ca>
> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > If anything I would say there is a definite preference for
using
> > the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears on this
> > topic. Whichever of the two chord fingerings you
> > chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd fret with the
> > 4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it.
> >
> > Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th finger for
> > passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into chords.
> >
> > Monica
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: RALPH MAIER
> > To: Monica Hall
> > Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist
> > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> >
> >
> > Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously
> > spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be
> > gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the
> > fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources
that
> > might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Monica Hall <[4][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> > To: Martyn Hodgson <[5][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: Vihuelalist <[6][10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >
> > > Well - I pointed out in my original message that
> > the
> > > earliest sources of
> > > alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the Cancionero Bezon -
> > actually
> > > give the
> > > 20003 version. I think that the reason for this
> > is that on
> > > the 4-course
> > > guitar the equivalent is 0003 and initially the most
> > convenient
> > > note on the
> > > 5th course was just added.
> > >
> > > So the real question is why did they
> > change? This
> > > morning when I was
> > > practicing I tried playing Chord A with an unstopped
> > 2nd course
> > > in all the
> > > relevant places and it just is less
> > convenient. The
> > > 3rd finger is floating
> > > above the fingerboard with nothing to do. And as
> > Stewart
> > > pointed out the
> > > commonest progression is A - C , G major/D major
> > and
> > > stopping the 2nd
> > > course at the 3rd fret is more secure. It
> > provides a pivot
> > > as you shift
> > > from one to the other. It does seem to me that the
> > reason for
> > > the change was purely practical.
> > >
> > > From a musical point of view the difference in the way
> > the two
> > > versionssounded seemed negligible to me. I
> > don't
> > > think that doubling the 3rd was an
> > > issue.
> > >
> > > I also pointed out that some of the other chords have
> > the 3rd
> > > doubled. In particular the C major chord -
> > > B. Nobody seems bothered about that.
> > >
> > > Really - I stick by what I have said. The
> > chords are
> > > arranged in the way in which they fit conveniently on
> > the fingerboard.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Monica
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> > > <[7][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>To: "Monica Hall"
> > > <[8][12]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>Cc: "Vihuelalist"
> > > <[9][13]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>Sent: Monday, September
> > 10, 2012
> > > 4:13 PM
> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Monica,
> > > >
> > > > When you write 'The point is
> > that the
> > > alfabeto chords (and other
> > > > chords) are arranged in the way that most
> > conveniently
> > > fits them on to
> > > > the guitar fingerboard. The order of the
> > notes and
> > > which ones are
> > > > doubled is determined by practical
> > considerations
> > > not by what anyone
> > > > may have learnt in their harmony
> > course.'
> > > your second sentence about
> > > > the irrelevance of formal rules of harmony
> > seems to me
> > > to accurately
> > > > reflect how these chords probably became established.
> > > >
> > > > However the first sentence begs the original
> > question:
> > > viz. why show
> > > > as 20033 rather than 20003? Here,
> > as others
> > > have already pointed
> > > > out, I really do think there was some conscious
> > decision
> > > made (by
> > > > strummers before the days of recorded
> > alfabeto) -
> > > in my view probably
> > > > to duplicate the fifth rather than the third
> > because the
> > > latter was
> > > > already strong being the first course struck in
> > a
> > > downwards strum.
> > > >
> > > > Also if there is a bourdon on the fourth course
> > (ie the
> > > Corbetta/> French tuning which might reflect an
> > earlier
> > > practice than generally
> > > > recorded - certainly the four course guitar had
> > an
> > > octave on the fourth
> > > > course) if the 2nd course were taken open
> > you
> > > would only have one
> > > > string (the higher of the fifth course) for the
> > upper
> > > octave fifth but
> > > > four strings for the thirds; in this case
> > fingering the 2nd
> > > > course gives more equality between the thirds
> > and fifths....
> > > >
> > > > rgds
> > > >
> > > > Martyn
> > > >
> > > > --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall
> > > <[10][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Monica Hall
> > <[11][15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject:
> > [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> > > > To: "Chris Despopoulos"
> > > <[12][16]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>>
> > Cc:
> > > "Vihuelalist" <[13][17]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > > Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32
> > > >
> > > > Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here.
> > > > The point is that the alfabeto chords
> > (and other
> > > chords) are arranged
> > > > in the way that most
> > > > conveniently fits them on to the guitar
> > > fingerboard. The order of the
> > > > notes
> > > > and which ones are doubled is determined by
> > > > practical considerations not by what anyone may
> > have
> > > learnt in their
> > > > harmony
> > > > course.
> > > > Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or
> > refingered
> > > and in the
> > > > context in
> > > > which they are used there is not a lot of point
> > in doing
> > > so. In what
> > > > circumtances would you want to use one form of
> > Chord A
> > > rather than
> > > > another?
> > > > The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old
> > basic
> > > chords played in
> > > > different positions on the fingerboard.
> > They are
> > > not revoiced or
> > > > re-arranged in any way. What Sanz
> > has in
> > > mind is plaing different
> > > > harmonic progressions at different pitches not
> > altering
> > > the chords
> > > > themselves.
> > > > I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a
> > way of
> > > "getting you to
> > > > play the guitar" or some sort of stepping stone
> > to doing
> > > something> superior. It is a
> > perfectly valid
> > > tradition in its own right. After
> > > > all people had been playing the 4-course guitar
> > for
> > > years before
> > > > alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can
> > do things
> > > like inserting
> > > > 4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and
> > adding
> > > ornamentation and of
> > > > course you can write out completely different
> > chords in
> > > tablature.> Improvisation doesn't mean doing
> > something
> > > completely out of character.
> > > > Monica
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris
> > Despopoulos" > > <[1][14][18]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
> > > > To: "Monica Hall"
> > <[2][15][19]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "David
> > > van Ooijen"
> > > > <[3][16][20]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
> > > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][17][21]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM
> > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> > > > > I have an opinion -- Giving that
> > opinion
> > > may open me up to some
> > > > > "clarification", which is why I'm
> > giving
> > > it. In other words, if
> > > > I'm
> > > > > wrong about this, please let me know!
> > > > > When playing the modern guitar,
> > I'll
> > > choose to add the D on the 2nd
> > > > > course (from high to low) or not,
> > at
> > > will. Considerations include
> > > > > practical (as Monica stated for
> > chord
> > > changes), leading notes, or
> > > > > general emphasis within the
> > musical
> > > context. Everybody learns the
> > > > G
> > > > > chord (modern) in various ways,
> > and then
> > > later sees other people
> > > > > playing it with variations.
> > At some
> > > point, one tries all the
> > > > > variations at least once.
> > > > > My opinion is that the Alfabeto
> > is there
> > > to "get you playing the
> > > > > guitar"... Same as
> > rudimentary chord
> > > books today. See your
> > > > typical
> > > > > Ukulele book, for example.
> > Sanz
> > > expanded on the Alfabeto with his
> > > > > Labarinto, and makes the claim
> > that with
> > > all these chords you can
> > > > now
> > > > > compose whatever variations you
> > want
> > > (roughly paraphrased from
> > > > > memory). But (again, my
> > opinion)
> > > this is still a guideline meant
> > > > to
> > > > > illustrate the wonderful quality
> > of the
> > > guitar, the displacement of
> > > > > chord forms to other positions,
> > yielding
> > > other chords. I believe
> > > > > chords, as a concept, were fairly
> > new at
> > > the time, and this
> > > > Labarinto
> > > > > was quite the innovation.
> > > > > Further, my opinion is that you
> > will reach
> > > a level of playing where
> > > > > your taste dictates your answers
> > to these
> > > types of questions, in
> > > > the
> > > > > given situation. This is
> > the level
> > > you want to reach, and I think
> > > > Sanz
> > > > > would want you to reach it.
> > If you
> > > don't know how or why to play a
> > > > G
> > > > > chord, by all means, use the
> > Alfabeto
> > > religiously. If you have
> > > > moved
> > > > > to the next level, take the
> > Alfabeto as a
> > > guideline, but add your
> > > > own
> > > > > flavor to the music.
> > > > > I forget where I read it, and it
> > was in
> > > the context of interpreting
> > > > > Baroque music on the MODERN
> > guitar, but
> > > somebody said (again,
> > > > > paraphrased from memory), "In
> > that time,
> > > any musician who failed to
> > > > > improvise on a piece was a boring
> > bird
> > > indeed." Something to that
> > > > > effect. (I imagine
> > Richelieu fell
> > > into that category... But that's
> > > > > another topic.)
> > > > > cud
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> __________________________________________________________________>
> >
> > > > > From: Monica Hall
> > <[5][18][22]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > To:
> > David van Ooijen
> > > <[6][19][23]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>> >
> > Cc:
> > > Vihuelalist <[7][20][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012
> > 5:23 PM
> > > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on
> > Baroque Guitar
> > > > > My ears have no problem with
> > doubling the
> > > 3rd. As I pointed out
> > > > > Chords B, & and N all have the
> > major 3rd
> > > doubled. And the
> > > > consonant
> > > > > form of chord L has the minor 3rd
> > > doubled. That doesn't seem to
> > > > have
> > > > > bothered guitarists in the 17th
> > century
> > > and it shouldn't bother you
> > > > > today either.
> > > > > I doubt whether you have
> > encountered the
> > > dissonant form of Chord L
> > > > in
> > > > > your harmony lessons
> > either. That is
> > > a purely practical device.
> > > > > Monica
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David
> > > van Ooijen"
> > > > > <[1][8][21][25]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
> > > > > To: "Vihuelalist"
> > > <[2][9][22][26]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>>
> > > Sent:
> > > Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:12 PM
> > > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on
> > Baroque Guitar
> > > > > > On 9 September 2012 23:08,
> > Monica Hall
> > > > <[3][10][23][27]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> I don't think that doubling
> > the 3rd is
> > > an issue or that what
> > > > people
> > > > > learn in
> > > > > >> their harmony lessons today is
> > > particularly relevant. I doubt
> > > > > whether
> > > > > >> guitarists at the beginning of
> > the 17th
> > > century thought in those
> > > > > terms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neither do today's guitarists
> > who chose
> > > for 33002(3), but their
> > > > ears
> > > > > > tell them it's the better
> > choice. In
> > > harmony lessons you just
> > > > learn
> > > > > to
> > > > > > give names to what your ears
> > already
> > > told you. In other words,
> > > > don't
> > > > > > turn the argument around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- *******************************
> > > > > > David van Ooijen
> > > > > > [4][11][24][28]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> > > > > > [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
> > > > > > *******************************
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To get on or off this list see
> > list
> > > information at
> > > > > >
> > >
[12][25][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > References
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. mailto:[13][26][30]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> > > > > 2. mailto:[14][27][31]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > > > > 3. mailto:[15][28][32]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > > > > 4. mailto:[16][29][33]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> > > > > 5. [17][30][34]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >References
> > > >
> > > > 1.
> > >
> >
>
>[31][35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Espopoulos_ch
r
> iss@yah
> oo.com > > 2.
> > >
> >
> [32][36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk>
> 3.
> > >
> >
>
>[33][37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen
@
> gmail.c
> om > > 4.
> > >
> >
>
[34][38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
t
> h.edu>
> 5.
> [35][39]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > > > 6.
> > >
> >
>
>[36][40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen
@
> gmail.c
> om > > 7.
> > >
> >
>
[37][41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
t
> h.edu>
> 8.
> > >
> >
>
>[38][42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen
@
> gmail.c
> om > > 9.
> > >
> >
>
[39][43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
t
> h.edu>
> 10.
> [40][44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > > > 11.
> > >
> >
>
>[41][45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen
@
> gmail.c
> om > > 12.
> [42][46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > > 13.
> > >
> >
>
>[43][47]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen
@
> gmail.c
> om > > 14.
> > >
> >
>
[44][48]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
t
> h.edu>
> 15.
> [45][49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > > > 16.
> > >
> >
>
>[46][50]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen
@
> gmail.c
> om > > 17. [47][51]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> --
> References
> 1. mailto:[48][52]rkcma...@shaw.ca
> 2. mailto:[49][53]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [50][54]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
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> 2.
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> 26.
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> 31.
>
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du
> 35.
[89]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 36.
>
[90]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai
l.c
> 37.
[91]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 38.
>
[92]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai
l.c
> 39.
[93]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 40.
[94]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 41.
>
[95]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai
l.c
> 42. [96]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 43.
>
[97]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai
l.c
> 44.
[98]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 45.
[99]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 46.
>
[100]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gma
il.c
> 47. [101]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
> 48.
[102]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rkcma...@shaw.ca
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[103]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 50. [104]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
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