So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using their products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any responsibility for us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse to be labelled that way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a different operating system like Android? See, Krister has a point. No matter how long we take to beta test products and when the official release does come out, people always have to find something else to bitch about. It makes me wonder sometimes why I bother beta testing for these spoiled folks that think everything should be perfect and go on bashing the people that are involved in trying to make the software a success. And then I remember that there are people that do appreciate what people like myself are doing. So to those people, thanks, and to those other people, sorry to disappoint you.
Shawn Sent From My White MacBook Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs Skype username: bbstheblindrapper Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com > On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > hi. > very well said. > there are people in this group who needed to hear your words. > what it can be good for them, it may not be for others. > and for me it is not. > Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world. > some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor. > we do not need favors, but rights. > and we must fight for our rights. > and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect us > as they should > we always do our part in cooperation in solving the problems, but the apple > never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people. > > apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why it also does > not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity? > blind are those who do not want to see ... > > and I'm blind, but I want to see! > and always want the best for me! > and if I am an apple user, > I'm also a client. > and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect. > and respect for me, is to have equal rights. > thank you for your words. > cheers. > > Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu: >> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a lot >> of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in the >> world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. I'm not >> going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products since they >> also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, and they can't >> maintain a certain level of quality across those products then they need to >> make some changes in priorities and business decisions. Note, I'm not saying >> Apple has a quality issue or that they don't care about accessibility. I'm >> just saying that the argument that they have a lot of products is bogus. >> >> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but they >> certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I get a >> call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to use my >> iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you that I >> process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver every time I >> reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for both my personal use and for >> my job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my ability to be productive >> at work. >> >> I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone to a >> blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running into on >> IOS 9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person get an iPhone and >> then run into the problems I'm seeing. If they don't use the phone the way I >> do, or they don't see these bugs themselves, then that's great, but at least >> they'll be making an informed decision. My real point in saying that though, >> was that people's impression of IOS 8 versus IOS 9 has a lot to do with how >> they use their phone. I was not an IOS 8 basher, but I'm definitely running >> into a lot more issue that impact me and how I use my phone on IOS 9 then I >> did on IOS 8. For me, the quality of IOS 9 has definitely deteriorated, so >> it isn't true for everyone that IOS 8 was this unmitigated disaster and IOS >> 9 has solved all of those issues. >> >> On 10/23/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Miller wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I think everyone’s missing the point here. Apple’s accessibility team is >>> not just focusing on VoiceOver, they’re focusing on an entire set of >>> features, covering different disabilities. Furthermore, they’ve now got 4 >>> operating systems to focus on, rather than 2. >>> None of the bugs mentioned in this thread absolutely prevent anyone from >>> using iOS, so let Apple fix them when they get to them on what is probably >>> a gigantic list of things to fix, and not just for VoiceOver users. >>> Saying you can’t recommend the iPhone any more because of a few minor >>> annoyances seems a bit far fetched in my opinion. >>> >>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Rajmund <brajmund2...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> >>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>>> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm >>>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never >>>>> regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose >>>>> VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes >>>>> when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work >>>>> arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9 >>>>> than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to >>>>> another blind person, at least not without letting them know about these >>>>> issues. >>>>> >>>>> On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well >>>>>> spokenly than me. >>>>>> Thanks for that. >>>>>> /Krister >>>>>> >>>>>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Everyone, >>>>>>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last >>>>>>> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number >>>>>>> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone >>>>>>> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with >>>>>>> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the >>>>>>> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are >>>>>>> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have >>>>>>> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with. >>>>>>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I >>>>>>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the >>>>>>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought, >>>>>>> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it >>>>>>> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one >>>>>>> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen >>>>>>> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream >>>>>>> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for >>>>>>> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the >>>>>>> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wayne >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple >>>>>>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will >>>>>>>> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target >>>>>>>> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do >>>>>>>> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on >>>>>>>> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't >>>>>>>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9, >>>>>>>> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so >>>>>>>> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to >>>>>>>> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list >>>>>>>> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't >>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user >>>>>>>> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to go >>>>>>>> before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>> gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan boyism >>>>>>>> for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> beta testers might say? For every release there has been and probably >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been >>>>>>>>> complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the >>>>>>>>> fixes. Either it's too bloody late or there's too little or too much >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> everything. I'm the type of guy who upgrades every app and every Os >>>>>>>>> to see >>>>>>>>> what features are there and if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody's >>>>>>>>> perfect. As i said before i think it's strange that Apple gets so many >>>>>>>>> complaints about things that aren't even their fault like apps that >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> not upgraded and so don't work or such. In my time on Windows there >>>>>>>>> wasn't >>>>>>>>> anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that "freedom >>>>>>>>> scientific >>>>>>>>> or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don't give a fig about >>>>>>>>> us". So >>>>>>>>> are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of code is >>>>>>>>> ever >>>>>>>>> bug free. Should we report them? >>>>>>>> Yes politely and with enough info to make the folks aware of the >>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>> but i wonder if that's the case when i hear the tone here and on other >>>>>>>> forums where blind folks and Apple are the common denominator. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> /Krister >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a >>>>>>>>>> problem, >>>>>>>>>> regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not >>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>>> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> appear to be to external testers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a >>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>> release. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when >>>>>>>>>> bugs >>>>>>>>>> get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they >>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>> resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not >>>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>>>>>> well enough. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my >>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>> showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal >>>>>>>>>> liberties, >>>>>>>>>> talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, >>>>>>>>>> refreshable >>>>>>>>>> Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and >>>>>>>>>> low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I >>>>>>>>>> may, >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to >>>>>>>>>> keep >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most >>>>>>>>>> likely be >>>>>>>>>> much higher. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Most Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone >>>>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>> list, or >>>>>>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>>>>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>>>>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone >>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>> or if >>>>>>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>>>>> owners or >>>>>>>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter at: >>>>>>> www.twitter.com/wcmerritt >>>>>>> My website: >>>>>>> www.wayneism.com >>>>>>> My book list: >>>>>>> www.wayneism.com/books.php >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone >>>>>>> list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone >>>>> list. >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>> >>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>> >>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> Sent from a Braille Sense >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>> >>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>> >>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. > --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
