I must have missed that message, but I don't recall seeing any one bash
the beta testers. I'm a beta tester myself, and I haven't been offended
by anything anyone has said on list. I know there will always be a
minority of nay sayers in any group, and I'm not going to let them keep
me from contributing to make a product better.
I know I've been criticized on list for being frustrated with the bugs
I'm seeing in IOS 9, but I've never said that Apple is doing us a huge
disservice, nor do I think Apple isn't taking any responsibility. Apple
is making a call on the bugs they'll address in IOS, whether they be
accessibility related or not. As a user, I need to decide if an iPhone
is the best product for what I want to do or not, which means
considering the bugs as well as the features.
I have considered an Android phone, and I'll keep considering an Android
phone. To be honest, I don't use all of the features in IOS, and so I'm
not always taking advantage of the more advanced features you get with
IOS and VoiceOver. Because of that, and Android phone might be a better
platform for me to text, take phone calls and handle email. I do have an
Android tablet, and if another blind person were to ask me what I'd
recommend, I'd talk about what you'd be doing with your device and what
the strengths and weaknesses are of each platform. I'd let them make up
their own mind. In my case, my endorsement of the iPhone is not as
glowing as it's been because of the frustrating issues I'm having with
IOS 9.
I should also say that it's the people who report problems and ask for
things to be better that make something better for everyone. This holds
for the beta testers, but also applies to others who let Apple know how
things could be improved. If everyone who found a bug in IOS just left
for another platform then I'd think you'd see the quality of IOS decline
as people didn't report issues and fight to get them addressed. That
doesn't mean people should be negative, but I don't consider myself to
be negative. I never bash Apple or IOS, but if someone were to ask me
what I thought about an iPhone, I'd tell them the pros as well as the cons.
On 10/23/2015 02:29 PM, Shawn Krasniuk wrote:
So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge
disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using their
products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any responsibility for
us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse to be labelled that
way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a different operating system
like Android? See, Krister has a point. No matter how long we take to beta test
products and when the official release does come out, people always have to
find something else to bitch about. It makes me wonder sometimes why I bother
beta testing for these spoiled folks that think everything should be perfect
and go on bashing the people that are involved in trying to make the software a
success. And then I remember that there are people that do appreciate what
people like myself are doing. So to those people, thanks, and to those other
people, sorry to disappoint you.
Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook
Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com
On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <mario....@gmail.com> wrote:
hi.
very well said.
there are people in this group who needed to hear your words.
what it can be good for them, it may not be for others.
and for me it is not.
Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world.
some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor.
we do not need favors, but rights.
and we must fight for our rights.
and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect us as
they should
we always do our part in cooperation in solving the problems, but the apple
never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people.
apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why it also does
not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity?
blind are those who do not want to see ...
and I'm blind, but I want to see!
and always want the best for me!
and if I am an apple user,
I'm also a client.
and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect.
and respect for me, is to have equal rights.
thank you for your words.
cheers.
Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu:
I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a lot of
products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in the world, due
to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. I'm not going to cut
them any slack because they have a lot of products since they also have a lot
of resources. If they have too many products, and they can't maintain a certain
level of quality across those products then they need to make some changes in
priorities and business decisions. Note, I'm not saying Apple has a quality
issue or that they don't care about accessibility. I'm just saying that the
argument that they have a lot of products is bogus.
I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but they
certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I get a call
when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to use my iPhone the
way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you that I process a lot
fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver every time I reply to an
email message. I use an iPhone for both my personal use and for my job, and
these bugs are definitely impacting my ability to be productive at work.
I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone to a
blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running into on IOS
9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person get an iPhone and then run
into the problems I'm seeing. If they don't use the phone the way I do, or they
don't see these bugs themselves, then that's great, but at least they'll be
making an informed decision. My real point in saying that though, was that
people's impression of IOS 8 versus IOS 9 has a lot to do with how they use
their phone. I was not an IOS 8 basher, but I'm definitely running into a lot
more issue that impact me and how I use my phone on IOS 9 then I did on IOS 8.
For me, the quality of IOS 9 has definitely deteriorated, so it isn't true for
everyone that IOS 8 was this unmitigated disaster and IOS 9 has solved all of
those issues.
On 10/23/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Miller wrote:
Hi,
I think everyone’s missing the point here. Apple’s accessibility team is not
just focusing on VoiceOver, they’re focusing on an entire set of features,
covering different disabilities. Furthermore, they’ve now got 4 operating
systems to focus on, rather than 2.
None of the bugs mentioned in this thread absolutely prevent anyone from using
iOS, so let Apple fix them when they get to them on what is probably a gigantic
list of things to fix, and not just for VoiceOver users.
Saying you can’t recommend the iPhone any more because of a few minor
annoyances seems a bit far fetched in my opinion.
On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Rajmund <brajmund2...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair.
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com>
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never
regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose
VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes
when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work
arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9
than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to
another blind person, at least not without letting them know about these
issues.
On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
Hi,
I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor well
spokenly than me.
Thanks for that.
/Krister
22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com>:
Everyone,
Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last
year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number
were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone
across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with
iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the
buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are
bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have
been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with.
Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I
press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the
screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought,
look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it
is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one
else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen
reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream
software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for
the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the
software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing.
Wayne
On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple
doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that will
be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your target
isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to do
something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on
this list or in any community then you'd never do anything.
You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't
mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS 9,
answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is so
bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to
depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list
about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't use
our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another user
because they're more impacted by a bug than we are.
I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to go
before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific has
gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan boyism
for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community.
On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
Hi,
Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what we as
beta testers might say? For every release there has been and probably will
be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been
complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about the
fixes. Either it's too bloody late or there's too little or too much of
everything. I'm the type of guy who upgrades every app and every Os to see
what features are there and if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody's
perfect. As i said before i think it's strange that Apple gets so many
complaints about things that aren't even their fault like apps that are
not upgraded and so don't work or such. In my time on Windows there wasn't
anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that "freedom scientific
or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don't give a fig about us". So
are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of code is ever
bug free. Should we report them?
Yes politely and with enough info to make the folks aware of the problem
but i wonder if that's the case when i hear the tone here and on other
forums where blind folks and Apple are the common denominator.
/Krister
22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu>:
Hello Everyone,
I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, is that
with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a
problem,
regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is not
always
addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever.
It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, the
less
responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, it may
appear to be to external testers.
All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware of the
problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a
future
release.
In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, when
bugs
get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why they
were
resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are not
testing
well enough.
To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my way of
showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take for
granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal
liberties,
talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers,
refreshable
Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc.
Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind and
low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which I may,
in
some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow.
So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try to keep
in
mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most likely be
much higher.
Most Sincerely,
Mark
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