Jed, As a matter of fact, I do know a bit about history. You can eventually counter most anyone's point by going back in history far enough... You went back 60 years to the time of kamikaze pilots and the Empire of Japan. That's older than I, but not by much! I was speaking more in modern times since that's what we're dealing with now... You can't change history, only the future.
If its simply to 'win' or provide a counter to someone's point, then fine, go back 60 years; doesn't prove anything. In my opinion, in the modern world, say the last 20 years, the human race HAS progressed, and most CIVILIZED societies and religions know that the kind of behavior we're talking about is morally WRONG. You also don't change things overnight... Society and even religious institutions have 'inertia'. RE: your professor... I'm sure it was a most honorable thing to do 60+ yrs ago, but I bet it wasn't his buddhist teachers telling him that... It was more the pressure and indoctrination by the 'Empire' of what was the 'most honorable' thing to do. I'd argue that it was more the 'government' or the political leadership that was pushing that mentality, not the religious teachers. RE: Germany, one of the great Christian nations... Christianity had nothing to do with that, Jed! Many christians also burned in the ovens as well. It was about an arrogant, condescending, elitest attitude wanting to create, or be a part of, a superior race. The lesson being that even a society of religious people can fall prey to such a charismatic leader/ideology. And it was primarily christians and jews that fought that abomination of society, and died to make sure it didn't dominate the world. Your comments to my posting are soooo narrow-minded, or not making any attempt to see the whole picture. It was also enlightened christians that broke away from the monarchy and gave birth to what was up til then just a philosophy; that of personal freedom, personal choice, personal property, personal responsibility, freedom of speech... Gee, I bet we wouldn't be having this discussion if we lived in Iran, or North Korea, or if Hitler would have won! Most all major religions have engaged in despicable acts in the past... Some still do! Don't make the assumption that I'm christian just because I happen to disagree with your or Ed's view of things. I see 'wrong' for what it is, regardless of race or religion. Although not atheist, I think we'd all be a lot better off without any organized religion. Is the world ready for that? No, probably not at this time, thus, religion and ones spiritual beliefs should be kept between you and your deity/the universe/whatever, and is no one else's biz; and most certainly should not be allowed into any political arena or political discourse. Jed also writes: "And how about us Americans? Are you aware of what we, as a nation, did to our black population, and the native Americans, and the Japanese Americans?" I am very much aware of all that, Jed! First off, the black population in Africa sold their own to the slave trade; slave traders weren't holding a gun to their heads to do so. Gee, did you just happen to leave that fact out, or was your knowledge of history lacking that crucial bit of information. It was also the white, anglo race that amended their own highest law of the land and outlawed that practice. It was that christian anglo race that realized it was morally wrong and took steps to change it... Thus, making the whole idea of slavery wrong to a nation, and I would argue, the whole world. And pushing the issue despite civil war and the possible destruction of their own nation, they held to what they knew was right and just, and because of their wisdom and resolve, we now have a country that can claim many great non-anglos/non-christians; even one american, who happens to be black, who has a good chance of being president of this most generous and giving nation. Can Africa or China or Iran make any such claim? I thought not... Re: the native americans... Yep, they got a pretty raw deal. What I can't stand are people who think that the current generation somehow owes them something. No one alive today is responsible for the decisions of the past. It is what it is, history. Wouldn't it have been just peechy keen if we were all just created as wonderful, loving beings, and all countries and societies tolerant and understanding of those that are different? Well, hate to break it to you, but whoever or whatever created this universe didn't do it that way, for some god-forsaken reason. Let's just try to learn from the mistakes and not try to use it to blame others for what's happening today; or to prey on the people's sense of guilt in order to gain political power. And for all those who don't think the universe was created, this planet is evolving as it will, and no one today is to blame for what happened in the past. If you don't like it then start doing something constructive to bring about change, and stop whining about it on this technical forum. RE: the Japanese Americans... If you're referring to internment camps, war is ugly. Bluntly put, if you kick sand in the scrawny dude's face, and he gets up and beats the living shit outa you, tough! You started it, you suffer the consequences if your assessment of the enemy was wrong. If you don't realize it, we were visciously attacked. I certainly regret what happened because of that, but if you were running this country at that time, you'd probably take the same precautions... If you wouldn't, then I sure as hell wouldn't vote for you. BTW, I worked for several years with a retired Navy nurse, Floyd Ault, who was at Pearl Harbor that day, and he remembers hearing the banging on the upsidedown hulls slowing dying off as he and many others were frantically cutting thru the hulls with acetylene torches to save them... Most of the banging stopped before they could get to them. I bet you won't read that in your 'revised' history books... Perhaps your history is a bit skewed, or dare I say manipulated, because certain facts have been eliminated? And who controls what textbooks make it into our schools? A very liberal teacher's union. Jed finally writes: "Really, it is incredible that anyone would say such things." Sadly, couldn't agree more... -Mark -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:46 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Colin Powell and Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan Mark Iverson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gee Ed, I don't know any christians, buddists, scientologists or any > other belief systems that want to wipe out other belief systems; that > would strap bombs on their children and handicapped, let alone 'sane' adults, > all in the name of their religion/god. You don't?!? You don't get out much, do you! You don't know much about history. I know a whole nation of Buddhists who strapped their 18-year-old kids into flying bomb -- Mitsubishi Zero Fighter Aircraft -- and killed thousands and thousands of Americans. I lived with a professor who at age 16 and 17 was training every day and committed to a suicide kamikaze attack. Have you heard about Germany? One of the great Christian nations, the birthplace of some of the finest Western scientists, authors, musicians and philosophers who ever lived. It descended into the most unspeakable barbarism ever recorded, only 60 years ago. And how about us Americans? Are you aware of what we, as a nation, did to our black population, and the native Americans, and the Japanese Americans? Really, it is incredible that anyone would say such things. - Jed No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date: 11/1/2008 7:56 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1761 - Release Date: 11/1/2008 7:56 PM
