On Jul 1, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Harry Veeder wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Horace Heffner <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, June 29, 2009 3:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:vortex balls!
On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:
Yes the loop is closed, but I am working from the hypothesis that
the bearings are accelerated by the magnetic field produced by the
current flowing through the shaft. Therefore the bearings
do not need to make electrical contact with the shaft,
although they might need some start-up rotation. Note,
my hypothesis is just a guess so I can't justify it on theoretical
grounds using conventional physics. All I can say is that a
"torque" is
not required. This is becoming clearer to me as we talk about it.
It there is no torque there will be no rotation. There is friction
that stops any rotation unless torque is maintained. If there is no
current there will be no torque.
Yes if Newton's third law is the whole truth and nothing but the
truth.
Newton's laws are the *last* thing I would discard in describing a
machine which to me has no apparent anomaly. In any case, if you are
going to invoke bizarre physics, it is up to you to carefully
specify, quantify, and justify it.
It there is a current through the shaft there is a circular B field
around the shaft, except in the vicinity of the brushes. A
circular B field, even if it magnetizes the balls, will produce no
torque
upon the balls other than a torque that retards their rotation,
unless
there is also a radial current through the balls.
Remember I am making the shaft stationary so there are no brushes.
(See
my description above.)
Yes I got that. I repeat all the above and below. The only way I can
have any understanding of your statements that otherwise make no
sense at all to me is the possibility that you have the misconception
that a magnet in a uniform B field will have a net force (besides any
torque) on it from the uniform B field. This is just not true. The
magnetic material of the balls will have a magnetic field induced in
them that aligns with the circular magnetic field, and thus provides
a torque on the balls upon any ball rotation that resists that ball
rotation, and which provides no net circumferential force (torque)
about the shaft to either them or or to the shaft. Perhaps if you
described in detail, with drawings, why you think there would be any
motion of the balls in the circular field, or any net force or motion
reinforcing torque on the balls, without a current through the balls,
it would make some sense.
It is easy to see, by symmetry, that a radial current through the
balls can not produce a net torque, because the circular B field is
in the same direction at the bearings at both ends, but the current
direction is into the shaft at one end and out at the other, thus
any
such torque must net to zero. The torque at one end of the shaft
exactly cancels the torque at the other end, provided both ends are
symmetrical to each other.
Assume the bearings are in the middle of a very long shaft so the
relevant
B field is circular.
Uhhh .... did you even read what I wrote? What circular B field did
you think I was referring to in my post?
I guess for now the quality of and effort for accurate communication
has dropped to the point in this discussion that it is now simply
beyond the point of usefulness.
Please excuse my grouchiness. I'm short of time and sleep.
Besides the symmetry argument, if you actually draw the
configuration
you can see that a circular B field will act on any radial current
through the balls to produce an axial force on the bearings, not a
torque on the bearings.
If you look more carefully at what happens to the magnetic material
in the ordinary Marino motor as it rotates, however, you can see
that
hysteresis (a delay in the de-magnetizing of the material) permits
magnetized material to rotate into place where the radial current
through it produces a torque that reinforces the direction of
rotation, which ever direction of rotation that might be. This is
all
laid out in diagrammatic form in Figs 3 and 4 of:
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/HullMotor.pdf
Further, the symmetry argument for the ordinary Marinov motor now
shows a reinforcing, not canceling, effect at both ends of the
shaft. This is because, when the current i is directed radially
into
the shaft, the magnetization direction of the material that rotates
into place in the current stream is the opposite of the material at
the other end of the shaft where the current is directed radially
out
of the shaft. The torque at both ends of the shaft is thus
reinforcing, and in the direction of the rotation, whichever
direction that might be.
Best regards,
Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Best regards,
Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
