after some thinking I realized I made a few wrong statements - see below On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 2:18 AM, David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com> wrote: > I think the explanation offered by Jeff is pretty good. As long as a > significant electric field is within the cell conductive region charged ions > will be driven by that field in such a manner as to eliminate it. This > concentrates the electric field so that it appears across the non > conductive plastic. The final system has 3000 volts across each of the two > plastic insulators with a drive of 6000. This assumes that there is a > balanced system with equal insulators. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Finlay MacNab <finlaymac...@hotmail.com> > To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> > Sent: Tue, Jul 3, 2012 11:40 pm > Subject: RE: [Vo]:SPAWAR has yet to respond re simple error in claims of > effects of external high voltage dc fields inside a conducting electrolyte: > Rich Murray 2012.03.01 2012.07.02 > > I think your assessment is spot on Jeff. > > The only question in my mind is whether or not the mixing of the electrolyte > caused by the evolution of gas at the working electrode might generate a > varying electric field by redistributing the ions in solution. > >> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:17:01 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:SPAWAR has yet to respond re simple error in claims of >> effects of external high voltage dc fields inside a conducting electrolyte: >> Rich Murray 2012.03.01 2012.07.02 >> From: hcarb...@gmail.com >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >> Here are my two cents from reading up on dielectrics: >> >> With the 6000 V capacitor isolated from the electrolyte by the >> plastic, the electrolyte acts as a dielectric which reduces the E >> field in the electrolyte almost to zero in the middle but increases >> the the capacitance of the capacitor.
I am not an electrochemist but this is my speculation. There are two mechanisms which decrease the E field in the middle of the electrolyte. The E field is reduced by the dielectric properties of the electrolyte and by charged species (ions) that move towards the plates. The water is a dielectric because the water molecule is a dipole with a positive and a negative end. After (1) the water molecules align with the electric field and (2) after the ions travel towards the plates, there is no further current due to the 6000 V. But what if the water was replaced with a nonpolar fluid and had zero charged species (ions)? Then there would be an E field in the middle of the electrolyte - approaching the same E field as in a vacuum when the electrolyte approaches a dielectric constant of 1 (same as a vacuum). Benzene is a liquid and has a dielectric constant of 2.2 while water has a high dielectric constant at 80. So fill the SPAWAR cell with benzene and the E field in the center of SPAWAR's cell will be much higher. Also, at steady state, there will be zero current in the electrodes that are physically in the electrolyte (i.e. touching) due to the 6000 V capacitor outside the cell (i.e. not touching). If I call the electrodes in the solution plates A and B, then plate B will become more positively charged than A and any charged species (ion) traveling from the center of the electrolyte towards plate A is trying to reach the 6000 V plates, the ion is not trying to complete the circuit between plates A and B. Not sure what this means for the issues Duncan is raising since I'm trying not to get bogged down in details and I'm trying to focus on my experiment replicating Mills's CIHT. from Wikipedia: -------------- Solvent classifications Solvents can be broadly classified into two categories: polar and non-polar. Generally, the dielectric constant of the solvent provides a rough measure of a solvent's polarity. The strong polarity of water is indicated, at 20 °C, by a dielectric constant of 80.10;[citation needed]. Solvents with a dielectric constant of less than 15 are generally considered to be nonpolar.[4] Technically, the dielectric constant measures the solvent's ability to reduce the field strength of the electric field surrounding a charged particle immersed in it. This reduction is then compared to the field strength of the charged particle in a vacuum.[4] In layman's terms, dielectric constant of a solvent can be thought of as its ability to reduce the solute's internal charge. ------------ >> >> If there is zero ionic current then I assume there has to be zero E >> field in the center of the electrolyte. As soon as the 6000 V is >> applied, there is a momentary current in the electrolyte and a >> polarization of the dielectric electrolyte. After that there is zero >> current assuming the plastic is an infinite insulator. >> >> So the positive ends of the water molecules are facing the negative >> plate of the capacitor and the negative ends of the water molecules >> are facing the positive plate of the capacitor. Initially, positive >> ions travel towards the negative plate and vice versa. But as the >> positive ions build up near the negative plate, they start to repel >> any newly arriving positive ions and therefore there must be an >> increasing positive ion concentration with decreasing distance from >> the negative plate at steady state. >> >> I'm not an electrochemist so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or >> not quite correct. >> >> you can see some details on dielectrics here: >> >> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/dielec.html >> >> http://www.physics.sjsu.edu/becker/physics51/capacitors.htm >> >> I assume the water molecules nearest the electrodes feel the strongest >> orientating E field compared to the center of the electrolyte. >> >> I'm in the process of trying to replicate Randell Mills electricity >> generating CIHT device which has a Lithium Bromide, Lithium Hydride >> electrolyte. Somehow Mills is creating electricity during the >> production of hydrinos. Should have it up and running in 2 months. >> Details here: >> http://zhydrogen.com/?page_id=620 >> >> Jeff >> >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax >> <a...@lomaxdesign.com> wrote: >> > At 07:26 PM 7/3/2012, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> There was one figure which shows the visual manifestations photographed >> >> from the experiments, with the theoretical model of the E-flds (on the >> >> right). It was very clear that fields were present in the electrolyte, >> >> as >> >> one could see the manifestations of the field-lines in the photographs >> >> taken >> >> of the area above the electrodes. Electrolyte concentrations varied >> >> from >> >> 0.02 to 0.08M KCl. I believe LENR typically uses 0.1M, so just slightly >> >> more conductive than this reference. Now, this experiment was done >> >> using >> >> AC, 100Hz to 10000 Hz. >> > >> > >> > First of all, the work being criticized uses a DC field. AC is >> > considerably >> > more complicated. AC will, for example, effectively pass right through >> > the >> > acrylic wall. If this was 6000 V AC, at 10,000 Hz, and if it actually >> > had >> > some available current, the thing would blow up! >> > >> > Secondly, there is no question that electric fields exist in the >> > electrolyte. But not fields of a few thousand volts per cm, produced by >> > the >> > external field. The external DC field has, essentially, no effect on the >> > fields in the electrolyte, which are, in this experiment, produced >> > entirely >> > by the electrolytic voltage. >>
