This is another one of those interesting subjects that we have been discussing and it will be good to follow it to conclusion.
Yes, you can impart energy to that flywheel that you envision. And indeed, the magnetic braking mechanism could be used to take the energy away. But, a useful system has to continue to impart energy to that flywheel as it speeds up with time. If the Papp cylinder is to be believed as a OU device, then we must be capable of measuring the net energy released over a closed cycle and compare it to that required to obtain that energy. For instance, if we put a small quantity of gasoline into a Papp cylinder that uses air instead of the normal mixture, then it would not be hard to believe that the burning gasoline would heat the air and result in its expansion. As Abd was discussing in his rebuttal, the pressure from the gas would force the piston forward at a speed and acceleration that would send it upward. It would be possible to calculate the pressure acting over the piston area generating a force. The height of the piston would be determined by the amount of net energy transferred by the gas into it as it worked against gravity. Then, the piston would attempt to move downward toward its starting position. Energy would then be transferred from the piston to the compressing gas until the net gas pressure acting over the area eventually balanced the weight of the piston. There is little doubt that the final state of the gas involves an increase in temperature which can be directly calculated. This is similar behavior to an ICE that we are familiar with. All of the energy ends up in the gas if the piston returns to the same level as it began. We also know that this is not possible since the burning gasoline heats that initial mix of gases. The elevated gas temperature results in elevated gas pressure holding up the piston. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Eric Walker <eric.wal...@gmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Sun, Dec 30, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:39 PM, David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com> wrote: Therefore, if no heat is detected within the gas at the conclusion of the cycle, then there is no work done on the piston by that gas. For this reason it is not possible to measure the output of a Popp type system just by looking at the effect a pulse has on the piston movement unless the final energy is actually measured within the gas. I can see where this thought experiment leads to this conclusion in the middle of a run of cycles. But where I'm having difficulty is the conclusion that, absent heat, there is no work performed, when we consider the beginning of a run. To make the problem clearer, consider an extremely heavy, frictionless flywheel that is at rest. You have to put in a considerable amount of work to get the flywheel to spin rapidly. After that, it will continue to spin without losing energy. If we further suppose that there is a way to turn on magnetic brakes and convert the angular momentum in the wheel back into stored energy, one that operates perfectly and does not give rise to heat, you would then be able to apply that stored potential back into kinetic energy later on. But that would be after the initial work that was put into the system at the very start. I suspect that work must necessarily be done on the Papp popper at the very beginning, during the first discharge, and that this work can be measured and tell us whether the cycle is overunity. Eric
