OK, Lomax, you have had your last word. As promised, I am not insulting
back and letting it be.
Please end this. Unless you want to continue the exchange.
Jojo
PS. Note that this response is a plea to end the insult cycle and not in
any way insulting to anybody even Lomax. Let the record show that I am
ending this nonsense. Let's see how long Lomax can refrain from insulting
me some more. Note I have stop calling Lomax a liar so that I am not
insulting him anymore.
As for Joseph and I, you can believe what you want. It's funny why Lomax
finds it such a "astute observation" that he found out I was in the
Philippines when I have very openly written about it everywhere. Believe
what you want Lomax.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <a...@lomaxdesign.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:List integrity
Below, Jojo promised to allow me "the last word." This is it. It really
doesn't matter, though, because I'm done. anyway I already shut down
response in other threads. There are issues raised in these exchanges that
can be of value, but they are also basically off-topic.
The relevance I could assert is that they reveal a certain type of
thinking that is not all that uncommon, it is merely extremely visible
with Jojo. Jojo is demonstrating a hazard that we are all subject to. To
avoid it requires care and a willingness to self-examine.
At 03:46 AM 12/31/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
OK , Lomax, you are an expert in deception and twist and spin. I bow to
your skill and go away.
All Jojo would have to do is acknowledge errors or misinterpretations on
his part. My "skill" is only hard work. It takes time to research the
issues raised. It takes time to write something coherent.
And, yes, it takes time, though much less time, to read what's found. What
trolls do, mostly, is waste time. Is Jojo a troll?
A troll is someone who has, as a motive, insulting or enraging others.
Motive can be difficult to discern, but, observing Jojo since his
participation in Vortex started to go south, yes, Jojo intends to outrage.
This is connected, for him, with "responding to insults," i.e., to a
belief that one must respond "in kind" to insults, and it is also
connected to "correcting propaganda," except that Jojo has, many times,
*introduced* highly controversial topics, connected with politics and
religion, when he either thought he was being insulted, or he saw his
*beliefs* as being insulted. He introduces them, obviously, because he
wants to "insult back" someone, so he picks a topic that he thinks will
outrage them. And he's not precise, the topic is a shotgun blast, with
massive collateral damage. That the damage *usually* does not appear is
only because the readership of Vortex is relatively small, and most people
just shrug stuff off.
He knew and expected that his use of Vortex to promote his beliefs (or
"correct the beliefs of others") would be disruptive. He referred to it
many times. But he took nearly every excuse to do it.
I documented how this behavior first showed, previously,
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg74768.html
The entire list can document this time that I am letting Lomax have the
last word. I will no longer post unless asked a specific question or
insulted whether directly or in reference.
Please let this escalating round of insults end. I'm tired.
The exchange will end as he says, if he keeps his word. It's not merely a
"round of insults." That's what *Jojo* does.
Above, I describe what a troll is, and I provide some level of argument
that could lead to a conclusion of trolling *in effect*. Is that an
insult? Jojo has consistently claimed that his comments about Obama and
supporters, about Muhammad and his wife Ayesha, about what a billion
people worship as God, calling Allah a "Moon god," about people who are
concerned about global warming, about Christians other than a narrow
group, about people who accept the evolution of species, and about many
participants on this list, are "just the truth," and therefore not
insults.
I research topics that come up, and report the results. I don't research
irrelevant topics and then dump the results here. On list-irrelevant
topics, I don't start discussions here as new threads, other than in error
or to pull an irrelevant topic out of a thread where it's disruptive. I
have, many times, asked for errors to be corrected. In the absence of that
correction, and where what I've said isn't obviously mere opinion, where
it was based on cited evidence, I must assume that what I've written is
either true or at least reasonable.
Yet Jojo has, many times, called it "lies." It's fairly clear that his
reading comprehension is poor, he doesn't understand what sources mean.
He's mistaken comment that is not about him at all, as being about him, a
clear example came up yesterday with Axil. He calls my posts "lies"
because he does not like what conclusions may be drawn from them, and he
assumes conclusions and states them as if they are what I've said.
Frequently.
But my posts are just a collection of facts and thought. Facts are not
lies, they are just what's so. If a source conveys an untruth, and the
source is cited as saying what is untrue, it is not a lie to state what is
in the source, if it's attributed, because *it's in the source.*
Science begins with this kind of detachment from opinion and judgment. I
do not always distinguish my "thoughts" as such; but my thoughts are only
my reactions. If reported as my reactions, they are, again, not lies. They
are just my reactions, and, again, that's just what's so. My reactions and
thoughts are not "truth," nor are they "lies." They are just reactions.
This is so for everyone who is not God.
It's easy for anyone with the training to recognize the difference between
fact and opinion. It's so easy that I don't always formally distingish
opinion, nor does anyone in casual writing. (In scientific writing, the
distinction is crucial, and should be, for the best writing, formal and
very careful.)
Often what Jojo has done here, however, is to read or skim over the
results of research, that, if he checked, could contradict Jojo's
*belief*, and to avoid checking it and to avoid considering it, and he
rejects it immediately as "lies," but that is really showing us, if he's
sincere, only his own emotional reaction. It's raw denial. Allowing
reactions like this to run us is what allows us to remain ignorant and
blind. When we are caught in this denial, we understand very, very little.
If we are *attached* to our own religion (i.e., it's *right* and everyone
else is *wrong*), we don't understand *our own religion,* much less that
of others, yet we can be very quick to judge others.
And that same kind of thinking is common on alternative energy topics, we
see it frequently. It is merely blatant with Jojo, uncovered and unmasked.
Is this an insult? Or is it an observation about the human condition?
I'm finishing up my consideration of Jojo's participation here. I must
stop, myself, because I noticed something. Yesterday, I started to
actually get angry. Once I was angry, I started to plot how to harass and
humiliate Jojo, real world. It easily could become obsessive. And that, by
islam, as I learned it, indicates I *must* drop this, unless some critical
interest appears, and I'll need to be very careful about such a judgment
One of my new year's resolution is not to engage with Lomax anymore.
Can't win with liars? (I know I know, but you may insult me back one more
time and I will not respond. But I will respond to further insults beyond
one.)
I've not insulted Jojo, generally. I could be called "arrogant," that's
easy. In these threads, I've replied with carefully distinguished fact,
often, and Jojo has responded to it as insult and lie. I'm going to list a
few facts here, a little opinion, and leave it at that.
Jojo is accessing the internet through 112.206.36.18, from an ISP in the
Philippines. He posts from the appropriate time zone for the Philippines.
He's acknowleged living outside the U.S. He claims to have shared the
Hotmail account jth...@hotmail.com with Joseph Hao, who claimed at one
time, many years ago, to be living in the U.S., but who also has shown a
physical address in the Philippines. There was one post to this list
explicitly from Joseph Hao, using the Hotmail account, 3 Mar 2012 00:21:42
+0800. The style seemed to me distinctly different, and that style appears
in some other jthao1 posts. However the timestamps indicated a Phillipine
computer location.
Jojo did say something about Joseph Hao that was implausible, claiming
that Hao was living in the Atlanta area, studying for a certain
certification, which was what Hao had said -- what, eight years ago? Jojo
reported having "left the country," i.e., the U.S.
Joseph Hao sightings:
http://www.groupstudy.com/archives/ccielab/200207/msg00296.html (2002
Knoxville, TN)
http://www.voiceie.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000124
(2004, mentions CCIE Voice Lab Atlanta, but does not state Atlanta loc.)
http://www.securityie.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00003289
(2002 Knoxville, TN)
http://www.groupstudy.com/archives/ccielab/200805/msg00072.html (2008, Hao
is Chinese, no surprise)
http://cantonfair108.007eye.com/inquiry_1/Agricultural,_Animal_%2526_Aquatic_15.html
(Fair October, 2010. Philippine location)
Jojo Jaro sightings:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/725753-hermetia-illucens-worms-reptiles.html
(July 2011, Philippines)
I present this information simply because I collected it. From it, I see
reason to *suspect* that Joseph Hao is Jojo Jaro, and thus that Jojo has
lied about Hao. However, this is not proof. The evidence against it,
however, is *only* the difference of style, I mentioned, and Jojo's
statement. There is another implausibility here. Joseph Hao used the
Hotmail account for years for his CCIE studies. Why would he abandon it? I
can imagine a reason, but ... it's simpler that Jojo wanted to post
somewhere else or write someone else as Joseph Hao, and changed the name,
and simply forgot, once, to change it back. The difference of style could
be an illusion, representing only a relatively calm Jojo vs one who is
afflicted.
There is an irony here. Jojo has claimed, again and again, that Obama
could resolve the birth question by requesting the release of his "vault
birth certificate." He actually did so in 2011, but birthers have not
given up. Regardless, here, if it concerns Jojo that some of us might
suspect him to be Joseph Hao, his friend, the matter could easily be
resolved if we have a confirmed contact from Joseph Hao, who could, at the
same time, either dissociate himself from the Jojo postings here, or
acknowledge and approve of them, even if he didn't make them.
That's just what is so. There is no demand here. What Jojo has done is not
illegal in the United States, so far, but it might be illegal in the
Philippines. Some nations take a very dim view of stirring up
inter-religious enmity. Christian nations, by the way.
On the "Moon god" trope and claims about Allah and Muslims, looking for
how it started, I found this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg68757.html from Daniel
Rocha, which shows a sequence, based on my message of
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg68715.html
In that post, I called Jojo *to his religion*, I did not insult his
religion in the least. What I did, however, was to raise a doubt:
I'm starting to doubt that Jojo is serious. This could merely be trolling.
The cause of that idea was that Jojo did not engage with evidence, but
continued to make preposterous assertions about Obama, ignoring evidence
presented. Others came up with a similar conclusion about Jojo's
participation, which was behind of a grossly uncivil comment to Jojo from
another Vortician.
As can be seen in the Daniel Rocha response, Jojo went on the attack,
directly insulting *all Muslims,* not just me. He responded to "insult,"
and he responded with everything he can grab and throw.
Weapons-grade Balonium....
Everyone with half a brain cell knows that what he released was faked. But
I guess I can forgive you because you don't have half a brain cell.
PS. I know for a fact that Jesus Christ does not like lying so I am not
lying. What I do know is that allah (aka Satan) is a liar and the father
of lies. That is why, you as an allah slave have no compunction at all
about your blatant lies. That is why Bin Laden has no compunction in lying
to kill people.
(Remember, you started this religious attack. This is your third post with
religious attacks. I never initiate a personal attack but I will give as
good as I take.)
The Moon God trope was introduced specifically by Jojo with
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg72737.html
In a post which raised the spectre of gay marriage, and referred to the
"criminal-in-thief," Jojo had continued:
The re-election of a criminal is part of God's judgement on America as
this
criminal continues to ravage this nation until we are all slaves to
commies and
godless moon god worshippers.
Daniel Rocha picked up on this and objected:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg72738.html
Seriuosly, I'd really appreciate if you were banned. It's well known that
'godless moon worshippers' is an anti islamic attack.
And indeed it was. Jojo responded with
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg72742.html
He had not yet actually called "Allah" a "Moon god," explicitly, but
proceeded to.
Seriously also, I would appreciate it also if I were banned. That will
only go
to show the mob rule that occurs in this forum.
My friend, I did not say "godless moon worshippers"; that would be false.
I said "godless moon god worshippers"; which is the truth. And how can
truth
be considered "hatred"? Are you denying the truth of what I just said,
or do
you simply not like what I said?. Aren't they "godless"; and aren't they
"moon
god worshippers?" So calling allah a moon god will get one banned but
calling
Jesus Christ a fairly tale is acceptable and even celebrated? Which
statement
is true?
To answer Jojo's questions,
1. If the truth is expressed with hatred, it is an expression of hatred.
2. Daniel Rocha was pointing to common hate speech, which is generally
prohibited on Vortex. Truth is not the issue.
3. No, Muslims are not "godless." Muslims worship the God of the Heavens
and the Earth, the Creator. Disagreements exist over theology, but God is
God. There is only One. "God" means "Reality." People differ on what
Reality is.
4. Jojo was not banned, not yet. However, later he repeated and
intensified and elaborated on the "Islam is a false religion/Moon God"
theme, but nobody regularly repeated the fairy tale story.
5. "Neither." These are not facts, they are intrepretations. It's possible
to state facts but those statements aren't fact, either one of them. They
are opinion and conclusion, and, as such, are human artifact, and in
Jojo's case, there was intention to insult (because, he believes, he's
been insulted). Without finding the original "fairy tale" comment, I can
have no opinion about what it actually meant.
Jojo has continued to claim as "truth" many opinions that are only that,
opinions, and he has made factual claims that don't match the evidence,
and sometimes, the evidence is in his very post, in one case quoted by him
in its entirety, the Obama Executive Order that birthers claim was how
Obama "forced" everyone with access to his personal documents to keep them
secret. I'll just cite his post, not all the follow-up.
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg74530.html
The Executive Order defines terms, and anyone who thinks that this applies
to birth certificates has not read or does not understand the Order. This
whole affair demonstrates how the birther phenomenon arose and was
maintained, and many other examples have been found. Someone read the
Order, misunderstood it, and then stated in public form that it was
prohibiting access to his birth certificate. And others repeated it, and
did not check it, and when someone tried to point out the truth about the
Order, they were called liars. O-bots. Brainwashed.
Many here have opined that Jojo is insane. Yes, he is, but his insanity is
not as uncommon as we might like to think. The way out of insanity is not
to deny it, it is to accept it, and seek clarity, truth, and, yes, peace.
Jojo has continually had an opportunity to do that in these discussions,
but something is stopping him. All he has to do is stop and look at what
is in front of him. It's that simple.
Some matters came up in these "off-topic" discussions that might be useful
elsewhere. I'd never examined the details of the Birther myth. It's
fascinating.
I'd researched what is polemically called Female Genital Mutilation, years
ago, but this was before Al-Azhar, the ancient Muslim university, had
issued a statement on female circumcision, clarifying the issue, and as a
result of my research on the issue here, stimulated by Jojo's claims, I
found something I had not seen before, and, as a result, I now have a much
clearer understanding of the issue -- and, as well, what to do about it.
That could save a lot of pain for people, and even lives.
I have a translation of a 14th century manual of Islamic practice, and it
describes circumcision as "waajib," which means, roughly, strongly
recommended. (It's not a "central obligation of Islam" according to
al-Azhar.) This is a description of both male and female circumcision, and
it describes what is to be done. The male part is not controversial: it
involves cutting the foreskin. The description for females is the cutting
of the "baZr." If you look in modern Arabic dictionaries, you will find
that "baZr" means clitoris, and, indeed, some seem to think that, most
especially critics of Islam, probably Evangelist Christian Arabs. What the
scholar-translator of the manual wrote was that it means the prepuce, the
hood of the clitoris. I.e., male and female circumcisions are precisely
analogous, affecting what is quite similar anatomically.
But does the word actually mean that? This kind of question requires
scholarship, it would require a study of classical sources, one cannot
depend on modern meanings. As it happens, I have Lane's Lexicon, so I
looked it up. Lane discusses the meaning, notes the *common error* of
translating baZr as clitoris, and asserts, from etymology and apparently
from ancient source usage, that it means "prepuce of the clitoris." Lane
was a non-Muslim scholar who devoted the bulk of his life to compiling his
Lexicon. This was before there was any flap over "FGM."
I reported the research. Jojo learned nothing.
He could turn that around in a flash.
Jojo's full original response, including quotation of prior interchange:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg74831.html