Yes, I believe Genesis and the Bible to be literraly true. (Not that I
believe Jesus was a chicken because he said he would like to gather
Jerusalem under his wings.) I believe it is true because I have verified it
to be true.
Beleive it or not, I was and am an engineer. I studied science. And I have
found that the Bible is a science book. Not that it is exclusiviely a book
about science, but it does contain enough science for one to verify. If the
Bible had said that the Earth was a big plate standing on the backs of 4
elephants, then you would have a valid reason to call it a fairy tale. But
every statement made by the Bible about science has been found to be true.
After having read it over 29 times, I have still to encounter a statement in
the Bible that science has found to be categorically false.
I challenge you or anyone to prove me wrong on this. But do it one at a
time so that I can respond properly to it. Do not cut and paste a blog from
an Atheist web site. I won't have time or the capability to respond to that
in a meaningful way.
Jojo
----- Original Message -----
From: "de Bivort Lawrence" <ldebiv...@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Thanks, Jojo, I appreciate your response to my query.
It seems to me that you have faith that Genesis is literally accurate. How
did you find your way to this faith? Was it difficult? Easy? How
unshakeable is your faith?
Again,thank you for your response.
On Dec 30, 2012, at 11:09 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote:
OK, since you asked, do not call me a troll by answering this.
Genesis chapter 6 is the source of this. This passage is the reason why
God destroyed the Earth with the flood.
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the
earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that
he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when
the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children
to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that
every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it
grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face
of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls
of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
The Hebrew word translated as Giants is Nephilim.
The Hebrew words for Sons of God literally means "sons of Elohim". In the
Old Testament, only direct creations of God are referred to as Sons of
God. Only Adam, Eve and Angels are direct creations of God; but Eve is
not a son, so that leaves Adam and Angels. So, clearly this passage
refers to fallen angels mating with human females producing giants and
mighty men of renown. Men of renown means these men are known by the
various histories of the region.
Throughout history and in every culture - Romans, Greeks, Assyrian,
Babylonian, Persian, Sumerian, etc, there is mythology relating to gods
mating with human women producing extraordinary hybrids. The Sumerians
have their Annunaki. The Greeks with their pantheon of gods which the
Romans adopted wholesale more or less. In these mythology, there is
Hercules, half god half man with great size and strength. There is
Perseus, half god son of Zeus. There is Atlas, half god, big and strong
depicted as carrying the Earth on his back. These are the men that are
renown.
Google the video "Return of the Nephilim" by Chuck Missler. Chuck used be
in the Defense Industry. He was an insider. In his videos, he tries to
document the link between Nephilims and modern UFOs. Watch it and judge
for yourself.
Of course, there are also other videos when you google "UFOs", "Nephilim",
"Annunaki", "NWO", "illuminati", etc. Some good some crazy. Judge for
yourself.
There are books about this subject. I do not play video games so I do not
know if there are. I'm pretty this is as this is a common theme the
illuminati wants to desensitize people on.
Jojo
----- Original Message ----- From: "de Bivort Lawrence"
<ldebiv...@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Thanks. This is fascinating.
What are the sources for this information? "There is reason to believe
that fallen angels are trying to breed with humans to create a hybrid
race. The Bible called these hybrids Nephilims. They were universal
during the days of Noah. They interbred with human women to give birth to
giant hybrids - Hercules, Persues, Atlas etc. They interbreed with normal
animal to give birth to hideous dinasaurs and loathsome creatures."
What are the sources for this information, and for the rest of your
statements in this email? Books?
Are there any movies or video games that depict these themes?
On Dec 27, 2012, at 11:12 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote:
OK, since you asked. Don't say I am trolling.
There is reason to believe that fallen angels are trying to breed with
humans to create a hybrid race. The Bible called these hybrids
Nephilims. They were universal during the days of Noah. They interbred
with human women to give birth to giant hybrids - Hercules, Persues,
Atlas etc. They interbreed with normal animal to give birth to hideous
dinasaurs and loathsome creatures. This was the primary reason why God
had to wipe out the entire race of life on Earth with a global flood.
Fallen angels and demons wanted to subvert the plan of God by corrupting
man. If human DNA are all tainted with demonic DNA, the messiah, which
has to come as a man (pure human) can not come. They would have
effectively thwarted God's plan for redemption.
The recent spate of UFO activity and the more blatant abduction of women
seems to support this speculation. In almost all UFO abduction
experience, what is the most common theme that these abductees are
experiencing? It almost always has to do with the human reproductive
system. Women's eggs are removed, men's sperms are collected, women are
impregnated, etc. If these were truly biological beings - as in ET, why
the preoccupation with the reproductive system .
When we study lower lifeforms, are we preoccupied with how they
reproduce? Yes, we study their reproduction but we also study their other
systems. This is the normal behavior of a curious higher being studying a
lower lifeform. But these UFO's are almost always studying human
reproductive systems. Curious.
There is reason to believe that these malevolent spiritual entities are
trying to breed a super race of humans. Abduction have been going on for
thousands of years and it is reasonable to speculate that they have
successfully breed hybrids almost indistinguishable from normal humans.
These hybrids have now risen to power worldwide and have infiltrated all
of our institutions. These hybrids are the powers behind the Illuminati.
So powerful and so entrenched are these hybrids that even presidents fear
crossing them. They sent a clear lesson to all future presidents when
they assasinated JFK. These illuminata satan worshippers and their
hybrid handlers are the shadow government parasites bleeding our society
dry.
No one can oppose these hybrids. They can drive you mad with a thought -
telepaths or they can squeeze your heart - Telekenetic. You can not
oppose TEPs and TEKs. Only God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is
holding them at bay. When the Holy Spirit is removed from this Earth at
the Rapture of Christians, the floodgates of hell will literally open and
these demonic hybrids will consume all life.
This my friends is what you are looking forward to if you are not a saved
believer.
Jojo
----- Original Message ----- From: "de Bivort Lawrence"
<ldebiv...@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Jojo: "However, if you want speculation, I have some other speculations
about who these people are."
I am curious. Please elaborate.
On Dec 26, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote:
The Illuminati satanic occultic pagan group of powerful men and bankers
behind everything in our society, including the President, Congress,
Supreme Court, Federal Reserve, the Smithsonian and other institutions.
The Illuminati is the shadow government that FDR was alluding to and the
reason JFK was assasinated. He spoke too much when he called for the
dissolution of "secret" societies.
This above is not speculation.
However, if you want speculation, I have some other speculations about
who these people are.
Jojo
----- Original Message ----- From: "de Bivort Lawrence"
<ldebiv...@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
"illimiati?
On Dec 26, 2012, at 1:07 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Lomax is lying again. I'm not surprised. It is OK for him to lie as
long as his goal are "honorable" and good for islam and muhammed.
OK, let me ask anybody here. Who has actually seen Obama's Birth
Certificate in actuality? Not the scanned and altered copy posted on
the Internet. Not snopes which is a political hack job. If Obama
supposedly was issued an official Birth Certificate by the State of
Hawaii as Lomax claims, that originally issued BC should be in the
possesion of Obama, right? OK, if Obama wants to kill the Birther
movement, just show it to one, only one, highly respected individual.
Let's say, Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee, Sarah Palin or the like. Just one
well respected Tea Party member or a well respected Republican
congressman or senator. Let him handle that original BC, feel the
official seal, look at the folds, and make an official scan open to the
public and call an open honest press conference. Not a white house
press conference which is questionable to begin with. This is very
simple and the Birther movement will die an untimely death and I will
apologize and tuck my tail between my legs in shame and go away. Lomax
lies when he says we have seen the official BC. We have not; no one
has. What we've seen which Lomax claims is the official BC is a scanned
photoshop file. No one except Obama and alledgedly snopes have seen
it. Why? Is anybody buying Lomax's argument? It's very simple my
friends, if there is an officially issued BC, complete with seal, and
signature of the official representative of the State of Hawaii, just
show it. No amount of spin or eloquence or tiresome lengthy essay will
overcome this very strong argument. Just show it. Period.
Funny thing is, the new governor of Hawaii Ambercrombie - a democrat,
strong supporter of Obama, wanted to silence the birther movement once
and for all. So, he sought to dig into Obama's vault BC. Guess what?
Even he can't penetrate the veil of corruption Obama has put up to
block access to his vault records. Why is there an executive order to
block access to Obama's vault BC. This is the first time it has ever
happened to a sitting president. What the heck is wrong with seeing
the original vault copy BC? If he has alledgedly issued an official
copy, what's wrong with verifying it with the vault copy? Why does
Obama feel the need to go out of his way to issue an executive order to
block access?
You know, only corrupt and lying leaders find the need to hide their
history. Obama is a corrupt lying usurper.
And Lomax's is really naive to think that only Republicans are
concerned with this issue. Over 60% of Americans feel Obama should
come clean on this issue. But of course, the illiminati finds it
convenient to forcibly reintall their puppet president. And they have
found willing sheeple in Lomax. LOL......
Jojo
----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax"
<a...@lomaxdesign.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
At 11:15 AM 12/25/2012, David Roberson wrote:
The recent intense concentration upon religious issues is not very
useful for several reasons. It is apparent that you have a strong
Christian faith and that others within this group favor the Muslim
faith to an equally strong degree.
David is addressing this to Jojo. However, there is a difference here.
I'm the only Muslim on this list, as far as I know. And I have not
used the list to propagandize Islam. But Jojo has used the list to
propagandize a whole series of issues that are not actually Christian,
per se, but specifically Evangelical Christian tropes, intensely
anti-Muslim, in ways that have offended other list members, apparently
non-Muslim. These are not necessirly "favoring the Muslim faith,"
rather, they are, first, noting the inappropriateness of such highly
sectarian and abusive expressions here, and, secondly, supporting a
list member who is a relatively long-time participant here, who has
never used the list to promote Islam.
The anti-Muslim material was completely off-topic, not necessary for
any discussion here, on-topic or off-topic, except to establish Jojo
Jaro's thesis, that I'm a liar, and to him, "Muslim" means "liar." The
real thing that is happening is that he argued other topics, like the
whole birther myth, kept up an anti-Obama drumbeat, and on the birther
issue, specifically, I researched his claims and reported them as
being utterly bogus. Not as a prejudgment, but as the result of
research. And he could not tolerate that, and, I believe, that's where
his attack came from.
Essentially, I disagreed with him and provided evidence. That's
intolerable to him, so he then attacked with everything he could
muster.
This in itself is a good thing and I say nothing against the
religious beliefs of you or anyone else. The world has enough
conflict over religion already and it is of little practical use for
us to continue that tradition here.
I"d agree, which is why I'd never have brought any of these issues
here. There is nothing wrong with Christian faith, per se, and I
certainly hope I've never attacked it. Evangelical Anti-Muslim
diatribes are not "Christian faith," they are highly political and
very modern interpretations, and often are highly offensive. (I do
*not* want to impeach all "Evangelical Christians," only there are web
sites that pander to the most ignorant of Christians, selling them
books and materials that make these claims about Islam, claims that
are highly ineffective in actual evangelical work, i.e., missionary
work. Converts from Islam to Christianity are rare, but I knew one.
He'd have laughed at the silliness of this stuff. He converted, more
or less, as a reaction to a highly abusive father, and, when I had
dinner with him at his house, and told him a bit of what I knew about
Islam and the sources, he said, "If you'd have been my father, I'd
never have converted."
I.e., it was very personal. And the views of his father aren't that
uncommon among Muslims. Which goes to show?
It goes to show, in fact, what the Qur'an says, that people claim
religion without having it. We, too often, too many of us, cling to
our ignorance instead of to God.
As I said, neither side to this argument appears to be capable of
giving an inch toward a common resolution. For this reason, all I
see within the arguments presented is a repetition of the same
disgusting issues. Why waste so much energy toward this type of
discussion when it is known ahead of time that nothing will change?
Actually, I see more. Researching these issues has clarified certain
issues for me. It's like the birther thing. It seemed unlikely from
the outset, after all, don't the Republicans have, ah, attornies and
the like? A birth certificate conspiracy would require a series of
state officials to perjure themselves, etc. But, hey, I accept that
cold fusion is real, which indicates that sometimes pigs fly. I.e.,
something we expect is impossible turns out to be possible. But my
acceptance of cold fusion is based on evidence, not on wishful
thinking, and not on mere assertion, nor on interpretation of
isolated, selected evidence.
So I gave Jojo Jaro the benefit of the doubt, and looked up his
claims. Quite simply, they were highly misleading. Jojo stil repeats
the demand that Obama "show the archival certificate." He doesn't
mention that Obama actually has done this. Hawaii does not issue the
archival certificate routinely. What it issues is a birth certificate,
created by computer, from files where the legal information is
recorded. The signatures of the attending physician, and other legally
inconsequential information, are not on it. Obama had previously
requested a certificate from Hawaii, and had shown it, and that
routine certificate is adequate for all legal purposes. It's the
certification of the State of Hawaii that the birth took place as
described, as shown by the archival certificate, which is kept
guarded, that's why it is not routinely accessed.
After birthers repeatedly demanded that the archival certificate be
shown, Obama eventually requested, and got, a copy of the Archival
certificate. I believe that this required the permission of the
Secretary of State of Hawaii. You normally have to show cause for
such. In any case, the State made a copy, and it was certified by an
official as a true copy. Which is under penalty of perjury, by the
way. That copy was sent to Obama, and it was released in a press
conference. That is, the certified copy was shown to reporters, and
images of it were provided, and an image was released on the internet.
Things got really interesting, then, and for a moment, before I really
grasped the whole history and the implications, it had me going.
Because it looked like evidence existed that the copy released on the
internet was *forged.* I mean, it *really looked like that.* But I
kept reading, and I found the explanation, and I know enough about
file structures and formats to know that the explanation was valid.
And then we were back to the fact that if the archival copy were
actually forged, we'd have to have not just one official, but a few,
lying under penalty of perjury. And we'd also have the birth record
information from Hawaaian newspapers and the rest, consistent with the
released birth certificates.
The birthers came up with all kinds of "how come" arguments. Supposed
anachronisms, and all turned out to be highly misleading.
And this is quite relevant to what happens with arguments over cold
fusion or free energy research. People get into a fixed position and
interpret evidence, selectively, according to what they believe.
Certainly the mainstream physics community did this after 1989, with
cold fusion. But it's done by many, on all sides.
It's not true that "nothing will change." Because *I* change, and
others can follow me if they want. I learned about the whole birther
movement, I now understand it, what fueled it, what evidence kept them
going, all that. And also precisely where they went astray. I didn't
know any of this before.
Now, with most of the issues Jojo raised about Islam -- and he raises
them, I don't, for the most part -- I've discussed most of them
before, because I was highly active in Usenet discussions, more than a
decade ago. I don't recall the Moon God trope then, though. Certainly
the claims about prophetic pedophilia are old, female circumcision has
been a popular topic, and the accusation that cutting off the hands of
thieves is "barbaric" is likewise old. I really don't have an axe to
grind on any of these, because my God is Reality, not Muhammad.
Indeed, if evidence were to surface that the Qur'an was written by a
nine-year old girl (Ayesha?), a tad precious, but *the manuscript is
found, it carbon dates properly, and it is signed, etc.*, *it would
not change my faith at all.* So what? If she wrote it, she did a damn
good job!
The Qur'an describes itself as a "story," and then "the best of
stories." What's a story?
Most of the off topic subjects do not result in the amount of
conflict that is seen within the religious type. As you have noted,
there has been awful and unwarranted name calling engaged in and
insults which I find offensive. I would not object if you or anyone
else suggests an off topic subject that encourages discussions as
long as they do not result in that sort of behavior and they were at
least related to science. You will find me objecting if these
unrelated threads begin to become too long or cause serious personal
attacks. The recent discussions concerning global warming came close
to that threshold due to the sometimes heated exchanges that resulted
from what some perceive as a world endangering situation. I can
understand the passion since there are some convinced that the fate
of the world is in the balance unless something is done quickly. Of
course you and I fall on the same side of this issue where we seek
reasonable, cautious, and thoughtful preparation.
That's not Jojo's position. That's what I suspect you *want* to be
Jojo's position.
In fact, we could probably find a general consensus here on this
proposition: evidence for anthropogenic global warming is widely
accepted, but may not be conclusive. Nevertheless, the possibility of
massive harm may exist, and therefore public policy should
1. Encourage and support research to verify and more accurately
predict the effect of human activity on global climate.
2. Consider measures to reduce the impact of such activity,
considering the possible negative impact of such measures, and
attempting to balance benefit and risk.
But we don't need to debate this here. It is generally off-topic,
though not *entirely* so. The relevance is that cold fusion, in
partcular, has promise as a non-polluting technology that could, by
replacing the use of fossil fuels and dangerous fission power, address
and ameliorate global warming. Much of the mention of global warming
here is in that context.
And then Jojo pops in, calling the discussion "global warmimg
propaganda," calling the scientists who express concern "liars," and
calling list participants, on very thin evidence, "fanatics."
His behavior is the same, regardless of topic, unless it's one he
really doesn't care about at all. I makes rare comments on such
things, and I suspect that he does such only to attempt to defuse the
other-wise completely true claim that trolling is all he does here.
I am attempting to understand the nature of the religious issues that
keep this and other threads like it alive and so passionate. Do both
sides of the argument believe that they must prevail and have the
last word?
Jojo has declared that he'll keep it up, period, until everyone on the
list stops the "off-topic" posting. I was quite willing to leave the
last word to Jojo, and said so, and completely stopped responding to
him. Flat out, it did not work. I forget how long I waited, but it was
enough to see that he'd been lying. He had no intention of stopping,
and he would -- and will, if permitted -- continue to monitor the list
for any off-topic (Or on-topic) post that he thinks offends his
sensibilities. And then he'll turn that thread into a flame war.
Sure, if everyone ignores him, that won't happen. There will just be
an odd post from him. But I've watched this kind of phenomenon since
the 1980s, on the internet. Trolls become expert at attracting
comment. Eventually, they figure out what buttons to push. And the
list will always have newcomers, who don't realize the situation, and
they will dive in, with exactly what the troll wants.
Is God watching the debate and pushing each side forward in a manner
that seems a little less than brotherly? For some reason I do not
believe so. Why don't both parties to this discussion realize that
they will never make headway in convincing the other side and just
stop the insanity? I find both sides equally guilty and plead for
each to abandon the discussion.
Good luck. David, you are expressing, here, a Very Bad Habit. You
judge guilt. And you do so with shallow knowledge, I suspect. I've
written a number of posts here with a detailed history of the Jojo
Affair. Were those posts inaccurate? They are not about religion, they
are about the history here, and they generally provided links to
posts. If they were unfairly chosen, perhaps cherry-picked, anyone
could find that out by checking the history themselves.
I've seen your kind of claim many, many times. I understand the
sentiment, and I sympathize. However, you are judging from a position
of ignorance, that's obvious.
Forgive me if I offended anyone as that was not my intent.
I'm not offended. I mentioned that I've seen this again and again. You
are simply human. I do not blame you, and do not consider you
"guilty." I just described what I see and understand, and I could
easily be wrong.
Notice, below, that Jojo does not accept your position and demands
that you call for the "termination of all off-topic threads." There is
a reason why he demands this. Do you know what it is?
The issue, for myself and others here, is not "off-topic threads." It
is gross incivility, trolling for outraged response, a declared
intention to retaliate until others shut up, and the abuse of the list
for what is actually a corrupt form of religious and political
propaganda.
"Retaliate" here means, to him, and he's again been explicit about
this, "escalate." He will say or do whatever he thinks will be as
offensive as possible. It has nothing to do with what he claims he's
doing, "answering off-topic propaganda" here. In a couple of
occasions, some comment here, off-hand, could be interpreted that way,
but the whole Moon God thing did not come from that. He brought the
topic here, same with the wives of the prophet and the matter of the
Prophet's youngest wife, Ayesha. Nobody was asserting that the Prophet
was perfect, here. He bought it all here, and you really ought to
consider, if you want to judge this matter, David, why he did this.
It's quite clear, really, if you follow the history.
But that's a lot of work. Most people won't do that. They just want
the problem to Go Away. Can't people just be nice to each other?
I get it. I've watched this for years. In person, people can be nice
to each other. In a forum where anonymity is easy, *some people will
not be nice.* It's just the way it is. I'm a real person, I use a real
name, that is, I can very personally be identified, someone who wants
to do the work can figure out where I live. Jojo Jaro is anonymous,
and really doesn't care about his reputation, etc., and that's
obvious.
This is not an equal situation, David. I'm fully responsible for what
I write. Jojo thinks he's not. He thinks he can hide.
In fact, he is responsible, and he can't hide, but *that is a
religious position.* Happens to be Qur'an. I know that if I were to
lie, there would be no place I could hide from my own corruption.
(no more original content below)
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Jojo Jaro <jth...@hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:04 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable
age
Yes, you are right of course, but It would even be better if all
off-topic threads be terminated and brought to Vortex-B.
I am doing this is highlight a problem. If you call for the
termination of this thread, you need to call for the termination of
all off-topic threads. I believe that is only fair. For why should
the Vortex-L membership only be subjected to off-topic threads you
consider "interesting". In other words, why are you the arbiter of
what off-topic posts should be discuss or not? They are all
off-topic and should be banished from Vortex-L forever. Isn't that
what I've always asked for only to be insulted, ridiculed and
ignored? No offense intended, just asking your thinking process on
this.
I consider this discussion with Lomax interesting. So, on that
aspect, this thread has as much right to be discussed in Vortex as
any other off-topic thread you consider "interesting". Or are you
saying that because you are an longer time member of Vortex-L, that
you opinion carries more weight than mine? Isn't that what the
chronic off-topic posters are essentially saying?
It's all or nothing my friend. No off-topic threads or ALL off-topic
threads allowed. Am I not being fair? Is what I'm saying unfair?
Jojo
PS, Of course, I am ready and prepared to stop all off-topic threads
that I participate in, but only if there is a corresponding
commitment from other chronis off-topic posters to moderate incessant
off-topic posts.
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:dlrober...@aol.com>David Roberson
To: <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable
age
Guys, I would very much prefer it if this thread were to be
terminated. It is apparent that there will never be agreement between
the parties involved in the dispute and highly unlikely that one or
the other will modify his beliefs. Why not just shake hands
(electronically of course) and change the subject to LENR or
something else more interesting.
I suspect that I am not the only one with this opinion.
Dave