The report included a couple of graphs on page 27. One was power out per their measurement, the other power in. The mere fact that the power out versus time is clearly modulated proves that the input is not constant. The duty cycle can also be determined from that chart. I am not sure that there is any evidence that could support their claim better.
It does no good to assume that Rossi is scamming and you guys should concentrate on proving that there is a problem with the measurements. I assume that you understand my explanation why the DC is not important to the input power measurement. That is basic electronics. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Cude <joshua.c...@gmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 6:21 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments Check out these 2 videos. It's a clear demonstration of how full power can be transferred to a resistive load without registering current on either clamp-on or in-line ammeters. I don't know how it's done but I suspect high frequency, but the point is that just because I can't explain it, doesn't mean I must conclude that cheese can supply the power. This switch could emulate Rossi's on/off cycling, and judging from input measurements one would conclude a duty cycle of 1/3, but looking at the resistive load, it would be 1:1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovGXDDvc3ck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frp03muquAo On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 3:55 PM, David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com> wrote: If you do not understand what I have already written then it is not going to help to go over it again. I leave this discussion by asking you one pertinent question. Where do you think the power comes from that ends up in the resistor? There is only one source and it is the AC mains. Power from an AC source can only be extracted by the fundamental component of that source, period. All others, including DC balance out over the long run and can not make a long term contribution. Once you realize that this is true, which is common theory, it will become clear to you that a measurement of these two waveforms is all that is required. Forget the nonsense about diodes faking out good AC true RMS instruments. It don't happen. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Duncan Cumming <spacedr...@cumming.info> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments OK, I will tackle this problem head-on using the Socratic method in stages. First, consider a wire carrying 100 amps of direct current, plus one amp of pure sinusoidal AC current at 60Hz. What is the AC component of the current? Duncan P.S. Don't worry, we will get to the diode later. On 5/27/2013 11:57 AM, David Roberson wrote: Duncan, I hate to keep repeating myself that the power can be measured by analyzing the AC components only. When will you guys show why this is not true? I suggest that you start with the simple system you proposed of a diode in series with a resistor driven by an AC wall socket. Explain how it works as you say and I promise to show you the error of your calculations. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Duncan Cumming <spacedr...@cumming.info> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 2:38 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments I am not sure if I count as a skeptic, because I am not saying that any kind of scam was perpetrated. I am certainly not suggesting that there was a DC power supply hidden in the wall! My doubts are related to the electrical engineering skills evident in the published paper, attempting the notoriously difficult task of measuring three phase non sinusoidal power. Not only is the waveform non sinusoidal, it is a trade secret! I am merely saying that rectification will cause a misleadingly low value of current to be registered using a clamp on ammeter. Since the DC is not smooth, there will, indeed, be a small reading from the ammeter but substantially lower than the actual current. This will, in turn, lead to a misleadingly low power measurement. Duncan On 5/26/2013 8:46 PM, David Roberson wrote: Robin, The problem at hand is that the skeptic claims that power due to the DC current can be very large and not detected. There has been no discussion of the AC current reading being affected by the DC so far. That is a different issue entirely. I would like for them to answer the questions because then they might realize that their position is invalid. I can explain this if required. No one is suggesting that Rossi actually has a DC power supply hidden within the wall I hope. This would be beyond reality since it would be so easy to measure with a voltmeter or any monitor that looks at the voltage. The testers did a visual look at the voltage from what I have determined. So, skeptics, what say you? Dave -----Original Message----- From: mixent <mix...@bigpond.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Sun, May 26, 2013 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments In reply to David Roberson's message of Sun, 26 May 2013 22:35:09 -0400 (EDT): Hi, This is a little different. A full bridge rectifier will allow for both halves of the AC current to pass, and so it should be measured as little different to a purely resistive load. However a single diode will only allow one half to pass, which *may* mess up magnetic field based current measurements. (I guess whether if does or not depends on the sophistication of the device.) > >Assume that you have a bridge rectifier in the blue box. This is followed by >a filtering capacitor. The DC is then used by the electronics connected to the capacitor. Are you saying that it is not possible to determine the power input to this type of network by measuring the input AC voltage and current? Or are you saying that someone has performed a scam and put a DC supply in series with the normal AC voltage? > >You do know that this could easily be measured by a simple DC voltmeter, right? > >Dave [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html