Ed,
On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > Ed, > > > On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>wrote: > >> >> On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:15 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> On May 30, 2013, at 11:39 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Edmund Storms >>> <stor...@ix.netcom.com>wrote: >>> >>>> Harry, imagine balls held in line by springs. If the end ball is pull >>>> away with a force and let go, a resonance wave will pass down the line. >>>> Each ball will alternately move away and then toward its neighbor. If >>>> outside energy is supplied, this resonance will continue. If not, it will >>>> damp out. At this stage, this is a purely mechanical action that is well >>>> understood. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> In the case of the Hydroton, the outside energy is temperature. The >>>> temperature creates random vibration of atoms, which is focused along the >>>> length of the molecule. Again, this is normal and well understood behavior. >>>> >>>> The strange behavior starts once the nuclei can get within a critical >>>> distance of each other as a result of the resonance. This distance is less >>>> than is possible in any other material because of the high concentration of >>>> negative charge that can exist in this structure and environment. The >>>> barrier is not eliminated. It is only reduced enough to allow the distance >>>> to become small enough so that the two nuclei can "see" and respond. The >>>> response is to emit a photon from each nuclei because this process lowers >>>> the energy of the system. >>>> >>>> >>> Ed, >>> >>> With each cycle energy of the system is only lowered if the energy of >>> the emitted photon is greater than the work done by the "random vibration >>> of atoms" on the system. >>> >>> >>> NO Harry! >>> >> >> Ed, I am trying to help you understand your model. I am not trying to >> tear it down. >> >> >> I know and I appreciate the effort. However, I want you to accurately >> understand what I'm proposing. Only then can you add a new insight. You are >> not accurately describing what I proposing. >> >> >> >>> There is no work done by the random vibrations. These are the result of >>> normal temperature. The photon is emitted from the nucleus and carries with >>> it the excess mass-energy of the nucleus. >>> >>> >> Let us return to your ball and spring model of the hydroton and assume an >> ideal spring which doesn't dissipate energy by getting warm during >> compressions. If heat energy is the vibration of atoms in the lattice, >> then the spring is compressed by atoms from the lattice pushing on the >> spring. As the spring is compressed work is done on the spring, however, >> the spring will eventually bounce back to its original length so no net >> work is done on the spring in the course of one oscillation. The >> oscillations will repeat indefinitely with the same amplitude as long as >> the temperature remains constant. However, in your model the spring does >> not return to its original length. Now for sake argument assume no photon >> is emitted. This means some work has been performed on the spring, which >> means the spring has effectively turned a little thermal energy into >> potential energy and thereby slightly cooled the lattice. Now assume a >> photon is emitted. The subsequent temperature of the lattice will depend on >> the energy of this emitted photon. If the energy of the photon is less than >> the work done (W) then the temperature of the lattice will not return to >> the initial the temperature. The cycle can repeat until the protons fuse >> but the temperature will gradually decline and the end result can aptly be >> described as cold fusion! On the other hand if the energy of the photon is >> greater than W then the temperature of the lattice will be greater after >> fusion. >> >> >> No analogy is perfect and you are extending my effort to get one idea >> understood and applying it to a different idea, which is not correct. The >> vibration is like a periodic switch acting on the nucleus. The vibration >> itself does not release energy. It has no friction. Energy is totally >> conserved during the vibration. However, the vibration causes the nuclei to >> emit a proton because the vibration periodically causes them to get within >> a critical distance of each other. >> >> > Getting closer _and_ staying closer means work has been done on the system > since there is a mutual force of repulsion keeping them apart. The kinetic > energy of the lattice is transformed into potential energy of repulsion > according to the principle of CoE. Whether the temperature of the > environment cools, stays constant or warms depends on whether the energy of > the emitted photon is less than / equal to / greater than the work done. > Your model at the present time is silent on these possibilities. > > > > > Harry, you don't seem to understand the concept of work. Consider that > atoms in a lattice are held together by a force. They vibrate and this > vibration contains energy as the heat capacity. Is a piece of salt doing > work as it sits in the salt shaker? No, the material is doing no work even > though a force is present and atoms are vibrating. Steady-state conditions, > of which this is an example, do not involve work. Work is based on a net > change in position as result of applied force. The salt sits still. It does > not move. There is no net change in position of the atoms. If they move in > one direction, they immediately move just as much in the opposite > direction. If you want to imagine work being done during the first motion, > it is immediately undone by the second motion. No net change has resulted. > The system is fixed in space and it is not doing work. > > I agree this the case when the average separation distance between the protons is steady. > Consequently, the NiH or PdD are doing no work by simply existing. On the > other hand, if the NAE forms, then energy can be released from the nucleus > as an emitted photon. This energy was trapped before the photon was > released. Once photons are released, they are gradually absorbed by the > surrounding material as they pass through, thereby causing local heating. > This heating can be made to do work. No work was done before this heating > occurred. > > Hypothetically speaking, do you agree that if the protons were to gradually get closer without photon emission that the lattice would tend to cool ? Harry
