Harry, imagine balls held in line by springs. If the end ball is pull
away with a force and let go, a resonance wave will pass down the
line. Each ball will alternately move away and then toward its
neighbor. If outside energy is supplied, this resonance will continue.
If not, it will damp out. At this stage, this is a purely mechanical
action that is well understood.
In the case of the Hydroton, the outside energy is temperature. The
temperature creates random vibration of atoms, which is focused along
the length of the molecule. Again, this is normal and well understood
behavior.
The strange behavior starts once the nuclei can get within a critical
distance of each other as a result of the resonance. This distance is
less than is possible in any other material because of the high
concentration of negative charge that can exist in this structure and
environment. The barrier is not eliminated. It is only reduced enough
to allow the distance to become small enough so that the two nuclei
can "see" and respond. The response is to emit a photon from each
nuclei because this process lowers the energy of the system.
The Hydroton allows the Coulomb barrier to be reduced enough for the
nuclei to respond and emit excess energy. Because the resonance
immediately increases the distance, the ability or need to lose energy
is lost before all the extra energy can be emitted. If the distance
did not increased, hot fusion would result. The distance is again
reduced, and another small burst of energy is emitted. This process
continues until ALL energy is emitted and the intervening electron is
sucked into the final product.
I might add, all theories require a similar process. All theories
require a group of hydron be assembled, which requires emission of
Gibbs energy. Once assembled, the fusion process must take place in
stages to avoid the hot fusion result, as happens when the nuclei get
close using a muon and without the ability to limit the process.
Unfortunately, the other theories ignore these requirements.
The proton has nothing to do with the work done at each step. This
work comes from the temperature. The photon results because the
assembly has too much mass-energy for the distance between the
nuclei. If the nuclei touched, the assembly would have 24 MeV of
excess mass-energy if they were deuterons. If they are close but not
touching, the stable mass-energy would be less. At a critical
distance short of actually touching, the nuclei can "know" that they
have too much mass energy. How they know this is the magic that CF has
revealed.
Ed Storms
On May 29, 2013, at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder wrote:
Ed, the chemistry is way beyond me so I can't judge if the
configuration is plausible. I bow to your expertise in this area.
What really interests me is the resonance model you proposed to
explain the missing gamma. If the protons are progressively forced
together in steps, the work required with each step rises
geometrically. However, it seems to me that fusion is unlikely to
result from this model unless the energy of the emitted photon
exceeds the work done at each step. I haven't seen this point
expressed in your posts but perhaps I just don't understand your
model.
Anyway, I think the coulomb barrier problem is fundamentally more
important then the missing gamma issue, in the sense that a cogent
solution to the first problem will yield a cogent solution to the
second problem.
harry
On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Edmund Storms
<stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Harry, you need to examine the situation as a chemical problem. The
protons are normally in the metal lattice as H+ ions. These would go
into the gap ONLY if Gibbs energy were created. In other words, the
protons MUST be in a lower energy state in the gap compared to the
lattice for them to move into the gap. Once in the gap, the protons
are held there by this bonding energy. The bonding energy is created
by electrons forming a 2p electron state with the protons to form a
covalent structure. This bonding state is only stable because of the
large negative charge in the gap. The electrons are part of this
structure and are also trapped. Nevertheless, the electrons can move
freely within each Hydroton, thereby acting as if the Hydroton were
superconducting.
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder wrote:
Ed,
do you agree that what primarily keeps the protons in the gap is
their repulsion with the lattice nuclei and what primarily keeps
electrons in the gap is their repulsion with the electron shells
around the lattice nuclei?
harry
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Edmund Storms
<stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Dave, you are adding ideas that have no relationship to what I'm
describing. Conductivity has no relationship to the the gap, its
role, or its lifetime. The gap width is the ONLY variable that
determines whether it will be a NAE. Once the gap has grown too
big, it no longer allows formation of the Hydroton and, instead,
normal H2 forms. It can grow too big if the stress that made the
gap in the first place continues to increase. I suggest this is why
most successful production of excess energy eventually stops.
The Hydroton acts like a superconductor because the electron is
free to move within the structure because it is not bound to a
single nucleus. The gap itself is not superconducting.
The effect of nano-structures on concentrating energy (aka Axil) is
an entirely different phenomenon that has no relationship to LENR
according to my model. Axil obviously has a different model.
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 6:22 PM, David Roberson wrote:
I believe that I see what you are describing Ed. This effect must
go away at some size when the metal begins to have conductivity on
the inside surfaces of the cavities. Could this be the mechanism
that limits how large the NAE can become?
Does anyone know how large a metallic structure has to be before
it looks like a resistor? Perhaps I am stretching it to assume
that a structure which only has a small number of associated atoms
behaves like a superconductor. If not, what mechanism determines
the resistive parameter?
If a small collection of atoms behaves like a superconductor then
that would explain why the field generated by tiny Axil antennas
can become of great magnitude.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 6:16 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
Mark, you are describing a large container. The gap is not a large
container. It consists of two surfaces with a gap that is on the
atomic scale.
Start by imagining what a lattice consist of. It is created by a
regular arrangement of electron shells, each surrounding a
nucleus. These atoms are at a distance determined by a symmetrical
electron interaction between each neighbor . Now move the atoms
apart along a line. Immediately, the electron cloud surrounding
each atom in the wall is unbalanced. The electron cloud of each
atom pushed into the gap. This same effect happens on a clean
surface and accounts for the surface energy that attracts absorbed
atoms.
Is this clearer?
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 3:53 PM, David Roberson wrote:
Ed, I recall the Van de Graaff generators which had a vacuum or
just air inside and a conductive outside. One of the
demonstrations that I saw was that there is no electric field
within the shielding outer surface. Why does this not happen
within the NAE? It looks a lot like one of those devices since a
metallic conductor surrounds the cavity. Am I missing something
about the shape?
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 5:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
Mark, when the gap initially forms, nothing is present. It is a
void, a space without substance, a vacuum if you wish. However,
it contains strong negative fields and it contains electrons.
Does a vacuum contain electrons? The gap is too small for a gas
molecule to enter. It can accommodate only hydron ions, which
when they enter, react with each other. At this point in the
discussion, I'm describing pure chemical conditions that can be
calculated using conventional theory. Does this answer your
question?
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 3:07 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
Ed:
Thanks for the additional explanation, but it wasn’t necessary…
Obviously, there’s a disconnect as to what my point was in this
thread, and how you interpreted it.
I do not take issue with your hypothesis; I follow the reasoning
and steps of how you think LENR occurs. It sounds very
straightforward, and I trust your vast knowledge of the field to
have taken all the empirical data to heart when formulating the
hypothesis. I sincerely hope that you are able to convince some
LENR researchers to test your hypothesis and get some empirical
support…
The point of my posting the thread is to understand the precise
environment of these dislocations in the lattice… if they are
the site where LENR processes occur, and I think that is the
likely scenario, then it is *essential* to have an *accurate*
understanding of what constitutes a dislocation. Your
contributions to this thread have certainly described how you
view them, however, you did NOT answer my question as to what is
in the voids when nothing has ‘diffused’ into them!!
The purpose for my first set of questions was to simply
ascertain whether or not we have a (perfect?) vacuum on the
inside of the dislocation immediately after it forms and before
anything happens to diffuse into them… I think I prefaced my
questions to focus on that situation. Can we agree that we are
dealing with a vacuum, at least initially?
-Mark Iverson
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 7:54 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
On May 28, 2013, at 1:58 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
Ed replied:
“Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the
whole point to the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction
cannot take place in a normal lattice. A change must take place.
This change produces a different condition I call the NAE. In my
model, this NAE is a gap created by stress relief. Other models
imagine a different condition. Regardless of the condition, it
MUST contain hydrons because that is what experiences fusion,
which is the essential result of cold fusion.”
OK, so you are positing that as soon as the dislocation or gap
forms, hydrons IMMEDIATELY diffuse into it? Even if the
electrode hasn’t even been immersed in the electrolyte yet (if
we’re talking electrolytic type experiments); or before hydrogen
gas is introduced if we’re dealing with a NiH system? I don’t
think so…
Mark, of course a source of H+ or D+ must be present. Let me
make the process as clear as possible. First a gap forms as a
result of stress relief. Then any hydrons present in the
surrounding material diffuse into the gap and react to form the
Hydroton. If no hydrons are present in the material, nothing
happens. Once the Hydroton forms, this structure starts to
oscillate and mass energy is emitted as photons.
Two essential conditions are required for LENR to occur - (1) a
gap of critical size must form and (2) hydrogen isotopes must
dissolve in the material forming the gap. The gaps can be
created first, as is the case with the Rossi method, or they can
be created while hydrogen loading takes place, which happens
during electrolysis. In the Rossi method, the nickel is reacted
with something to form the gaps. It is then placed in the E-Cat
where it is reacted with hydrogen. Once the hydrogen has
entered the Ni metal as a dissolved ion, it finds a gap and
proceeds to make deuterium and heat. The rate of reaction is
determined by how rapidly the H+ can find a gap. This rate is
determined by temperature and concentration of H+ in the Ni. The
concentration is determined by temperature and the activity of H
in the surrounding gas. Because this process has a positive
temperature effect, Rossi must work to limit the effect of
temperature, which he does by controlling temperature using an
external source of energy. Using these variables, the behavior
of the reactor can be modeled very accurately once the the
variables are known. They are not public knowledge at the
present time. Nevertheless, the reported behavior of the e-Cat
and the Hot-cat are totally consistent with this description.
That is my story and I sticking to it.:-)
I hope this is clear.
-Mark
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:24 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
On May 19, 2013, at 11:55 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
To which Ed answered, mainly expressing what his view is inside
this void:
“The answer depends on which theory you accept. In my case, the
void consists initially of a strong negative charge created by
the electrons in the wall that are associated with the metal
atoms making up the wall. The charge is strong because it is now
unbalance as a result of the walls being too far apart for the
electron orbits (waves) to be properly balanced. This condition
attracts hydrons (hydrogen ions), which enter the gap by
releasing Gibbs energy. In so doing, they create a tightly
bonded covalent structure in the form of a string. The hydrons
in this string are closer together than is normally possible
because the electron concentration between them is higher than
normal. When this structure resonates, the hydrons get even
closer together periodically, depending on the frequency of
vibration. Each time they get to within a critical distance,
energy is emitted from each hydron as a photon. Once enough
energy has been emitted as a series of weak photons, the fusion
process is completed by the intervening electron being sucked
into the final nuclear product. The details of how this process
works will be described later.”
The temperature is very high, but not high enough to melt the
surrounding material. As a result, some energy is lost from the
gap as phonons. The photon/phonon ratio is still unknown.
Nevertheless, the rate of photon emission is large enough to be
detected outside of the apparatus when H is used.
To which I respond:
But if the void is tens of ‘atom-diameters’ across, you are way
beyond the influence of any electrons, unless they are ‘free’
electrons flying around in that void. Restrict your viewpoint
to only the interior of the void…
The gap size is unknown but sufficient to cause the proposed
process. You only need to agree such a process might be
possible in principle without having to know the exact conditions.
Ed Storms
Mark, you are making assumptions that do not need to be made.
Regardless of what you imagine might be the case, hydrons MUST
assemble because otherwise they can not fuse. The entire
process hinges on hydrons assembling in an unconventional way.
That requirement is basic. The challenge is to discover how this
is possible without violating the laws of thermodynamics. Of
course, if you keep making assumptions, the process can either
be rejected or justified, your choice. I make the assumptions I
think can be justified and try to find where they lead. In my
case, they lead to a model that can explain ALL behavior without
making additional assumptions. While this might be a wild goose
chase, it does provide a useful path, which other theories have
not done.
*For the sake of argument*, assume that there are NO free atoms,
sub-atomic particles or photons flying around in the void… in
that case, do you not have a *perfect vacuum*? And as to my
second question, what’s the temperature of a perfect vacuum?
Would it not be 0.00000000000K in temperature?
I have no idea how the concept of vacuum applies. The NAE is a
chemical state within a material. As H enters the state, they
generate Gibbs energy, which is dissipated as heat (phonons). As
a result, the region gets hot. The hydrons would not assemble if
this energy were not generated, thereby producing heat. That is
the basic nature of a chemical process.
Ed is positing that the NAE are essential to LENR, and I am
positing that the VOIDs are a major element in the NAE, AND that
the conditions in the VOIDs are NOT those of the bulk,
surrounding matter; in fact, they are very different. To
understand the NAE requires an understanding of EXACTLY what the
conditions are INSIDE the voids.
Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the
whole point to the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction
cannot take place in a normal lattice. A change must take place.
This change produces a different condition I call the NAE. In my
model, this NAE is a gap created by stress relief. Other models
imagine a different condition. Regardless of the condition, it
MUST contain hydrons because that is what experiences fusion,
which is the essential result of cold fusion.
Ed, perhaps you could summarize what the various viewpoints are
as to the physical environment inside these voids.
The different theories use various features. Hagelstein uses
metal atom vacancies, Miley uses dislocations, Takahashi uses
special sites on the surface, and Kim assumes a BEC can form
within the lattice. Each of these conditions are used to justify
formation of a group of hydrons that fuse by some mysterious
process. Other theories (Chubb for example) assume the process
can occur whenever the lattice gets fully saturated with hydrons
without a cluster being required.
Ed Storms
-Mark Iverson
