On Sunday, January 9, 2011 1:24:02 AM UTC-5, Graham Dumpleton wrote:
>
> You guys really just got to learn to do your own thing and not treating
> it like a crusade where you have to convert the world.
>
But that's exactly the problem -- web2py is trying to do its own thing, and
there is a vocal clique of "Pythonistas" who don't like that thing and want
to stop it. They say things like "web2py is *seriously harmful*" and "join
the rest of us" and claim by fiat that web2py is "not really a Python
framework." They are the ones on a crusade -- to expunge the diversity that
web2py brings to the Python web framework world. web2py is not trying to say
Django, Pyramid, and Flask are doing things wrong and everyone should do
things the web2py way -- it's just saying, hey, here's another way to do
things, and if it suits you, use it. The reddit gang, on the other hand, is
in fact trying to "convert the world" to the "one true way" of doing things.
The reddit gang wants to impose purity and homogeneity -- web2py users just
want to get things done (and are happy to let other people get things done
however they want).
> Django became popular on technical merit and because of easily accessible
> good documentation, not because its community went around like <insert name
> of church group> knocking on doors trying to convert people or arguing every
> little minor technical point to try and win people other. That sort of
> behaviour really reminds me of some new age christians I have known in the
> past who just could not shut up in trying to make you believe what they
> believed.
>
Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places, but I haven't seen anyone pushing
web2py in this way. In your tweet, you said, "web2py is appearing more and
more look like a religious cult." Mere promotion is not what characterizes a
cult. Companies advertise their products, and (I assume) you do not consider
them to be religious cults simply because they're trying to convince people
to buy those products. Massimo actively promotes web2py because he wants
people to become aware of it, consider it, and benefit from it if it suits
their needs and preferences. Otherwise, what was the point of creating it?
When he promotes web2py, he provides detailed information and code samples.
When people ask questions, he answers. When people make challenges, he
engages them in constructive dialogue. You may think he does this too much,
or not always in the most relevant places, but this is not cult-like
behavior.
In fact, it could be argued that the reddit Pythonistas are the ones engaged
in more cult-like behavior. Their creeds include "import this" and PEP 8.
Sometimes they can be prone to extremism ("explicit is *better* than
implicit" becomes "explicitness at all cost") -- often forgetting that their
own creeds advise "practicality beats purity" and "a foolish consistency is
the hobgoblin of little minds." They call for wayward frameworks to "join
us." When challenged or pressed for evidence, they retreat to the safety of
their like-minded peers, re-directing their frustrations to Twitter, where
they know they cannot be challenged. Of course, they're not really a cult --
the point is, calling web2py a cult is a bit of a pot and kettle situation.
Anyway, I'm not sure, but I suspect the problem may simply be one of
perspective. It appears the reddit guys are for the most part hard-core,
committed, expert Python web programmers with a fair amount of personal
investment (and identity) in Python web frameworks and the Python community.
They have a particular way of doing things and a particular set of needs,
and web2py just isn't their cup of tea. That's fine. The problem is, they
may not be considering that there are other market segments (besides people
like themselves) for Python web frameworks. They may not appreciate the
diversity of needs, backgrounds, and preferences to which web frameworks may
be targeted. They also spend a lot of time on reddit, so they end up seeing
every mention of web2py. This may seem annoying to *them*, but again, they
may not be considering that they're not the target of the message and that
the reddit audience is much broarder than just them.
> ...if you think the latest outburst about imports was some reaction
> about web2py getting a tutorial accepted in PyCon as some like to think, you
> are very sadly mistaken. They are more likely just a manifestation of this
> frustration of having web2py shoved in your face one too many times
> especially when muds gets thrown in your direction.
>
I wasn't aware anyone was thinking "the latest outburst" was a reaction to
the web2py tutorial -- who is saying that? Also, in this particular case,
the reddit OP specifically asked about web2py, so certainly nothing was
being shoved in anyone's face. And I don't think I've seen web2py folks
throwing mud at anyone (unless mere disagreement automatically equals mud).
>
> So, it definitely isn't in my mind suitable for all situations.
>
Is anything?
Best Regards,
Anthony
