Hi Miguel,
answer below
Le 3 oct. 07 à 12:42, Miguel Arroz a écrit :
Hi!
I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know
people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that
EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by
Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think,
although I'm not sure.
Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using Linux,
FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java. That's the
point!
Yes I know but it's depend the kind of client. I have spend many
years with a big one. The 5'th european inssurance company, and IBM
is everywhere with WebSphere,
there 's a lot of lobbying inside to kill WO. In this kind of client,
you simply can't say them : the product is no more supported on any
other platform than MacOS X servers,
it works, but not garanteed, and we haven't got the source.
This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon WO,
the problem is not in WO, but in your client.
Not agree, the french WO market is so small, that every client
leaving WO is a problem, It's a problem for the client but also for
Apple, I think.
Apple may not officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it
works, and at least Apple offers official support for their
platform. Look at the open source stuff. Do they offer support for
anything at all? No.
Because they are opensource, if you choose an opensource framework,
it's on your own risk.
If you can make it work, cool, if not, who cares.
WebKit is a different story, but even WebKit only became anything
serious after Apple "closed-sourced" it for a long time, and worked
alone, using their own guidelines, orientation, talent and strategy
to build a decent product. They only open sourced it after being
"good enough", and because legally they really had to.
Ok, but what did you mean ? WO is not actually clean enough ?
We can wait if needed.
When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO
side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly
technology, just for eating.", what are the arguments they present?
I just prefer a growing community , I think it's a good signal for a
technology.
It's not enough to say "oh, i don't use WO because it's not open-
source.".
I've never said something like that, but many clients , yes.
They must say WHY. Open-source originally was a good ideia for some
kind of projects, but it has a lot of drawbacks,
yes you'are right again, but Apple is doing big bussiness, I hope
they can afford a team for that.
specially when you look at the quality of the products, because a
lof of people work on it and because many times there's not a
roadmap for the product. Unfortunately it has become a comercial
buzzword (how ironic, isn't it?), and many people say they will
only use open source stuff because it's an hype, they don't really
know why. I don't call that "thinking different", I don't even call
that "thinking".
That's why I asked for argumentation to your petition. WHY do you
want it to be open-sourced.
Why ? to gain market share rather than loosing.
Did you ever try to run WO on AIX platform ?
I'm not directly speaking for myself, I'm just trying to do business
with a WO(nderfull) technology.
Clients are more and more afraid, tools are deprecated, we loose
mulitplatform support ... and last news :
Did you know that JavaClient is just supported on Leopard, but you
can't anymore develop with JavaClient ?
Personally I don't care, I've choose FLEX and AIR, but some clients
are totaly disappointed. ( Many years of work )
Opensource is simply a kind of security for client, even if it's an
illusion, artefact, it's more easy to say them don't be affraid, we
have source ....we can try to run WO on AIX for example or whatever
they wants.
What will we win
Most of fortune 500, 1000 would never choose a product not certified
on any other platform than Mac servers.
I don't want stay in small business.
We will win many developers and I think it's really important.
and loose with it. I'm waiting!
Stephane
Yours
Miguel Arroz
On 2007/10/03, at 09:17, Stephane Guyot wrote:
Ian, David, Miguel ...
I can't agree with you.
My last client, is looking for WO replacement because of lack of
windows and linux support.
Ten years of WO development without roadmap, multi to mono
platform support, ....
Actually I'm just trying to convince my new client to use WO, we
develops on Mac and windows, we are using FLEX, ( opensource,
multiplatform ...),
but I can't them : now we just needs to drop server and buy
Xserve :-)
I simply hate, J2EE , Spring, Struts, Hibernate .... I want to
continue with WO, but not at home in my job.
Stephane
PS : WebKit is open source and use by many companies, Nokia, Adobe
for AIR, it's not a good idea ?
I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple
opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just
for eating.
Le 3 oct. 07 à 02:51, Ian Joyner a écrit :
I agree – calling for open source is not thinking different, it's
thinking the same. This industry is too full of popular solutions
that don't really address the real problem. I think that's what
Steve means when he says think different, address the problem and
the need. I don't think open source will solve WO's problems,
that doesn't mean that I don't think it would be nice to be able
to browse through the code, but evaluate what the problems are
and then solve those problems. I think Pierre's group at Apple
are doing that.
Ian
On 03/10/2007, at 7:13 AM, David LeBer wrote:
On 2-Oct-07, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote:
Hi!
Think different: please present any valid arguments to
sustain your request.
Think different: please request what you want through the
proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community,
being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If
you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should
help building the WO Community, instead of flooding the mail-list.
Think different: please THINK if open sourcing WO is what you
really want. Because what I want is Apple to actively develop
it, doing a good job that results in innovative features and
QUALITY work, and yes, documented. How many Web frameworks do
you know that are innovative, with a solid, very solid code
base (with a few bugs, naturally), and well documented... AND
OPEN SOURCE? Because I don't know any one.
Think different: open source WO clones/copies/alternatives
(use whatever pleases you) exist. Do you use them? No. Why?
Because WO is still the best. Did being open source helped? I
don't think so.
Think different: if you REALLY need to look at the WO source,
you know you can.
Think different: again, stop flooding my mailbox. If you
really want to make your point, put together some decent
arguments, talk with the people who are working to build the WO
Community, and use them to get in touch with Apple.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is getting a little
childish...
I was just about to click send on a message that said the same
thing...
OK, not the same thing, Miguel said it better :-)
;david
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site: http://codeferous.com
blog: http://davidleber.net
profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber
--
Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group:
http://tacow.org
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