One more crucial point for some companies : as Andrus pointed, there
have been no roadmap for years. The only feedback some companies had,
was: tools are getting dropped one by one. Ok, everybody knows that
eclipse/wolips is far better than PB and Co. But some huge companies
had been explained in the past that one of the strengths of WO was
its set of dev tools; therefore, they watch the "strengths" go away
one by one.
Last but not least: JavaClient is EOL, not because of the technology
itself, but because of the tool (IB) is not supported anymore. As
Stephane pointed earlier, it has not been announced last year !
Now, say you are a company who did invest 6000 man/days in
javaclient. Say after the announcement of the last year, you invested
2000 more days in business and functional improvment because you were
thinking that it wil remain supported at least enough to get your
ROI. And finally, say you read that in a very soon future, not even
with a Mac, you cant' extend (and somehow maintain) this 8000 days
apps anymore?
I guess you might be upset, the less to say. And less confident in
the services companies who actual did the job.
Then, facing the cruel reality, you, as a company, is now asking for
any kind of guarantee that it will not happen anymore, otherwise you
drop the complete line of WO apps asap, to secure the future needs of
your business. In that position, opensource is one of the guarantee
you might think about. And it is not a new awaited replacement for
JavaClient that would change your mind, since there is no official
roadmap and it is yet another 'best kept secret of blah blah' and
then nobody is allowed to tell you that in late '08 something 'I
can't talk about' will be available, but, yep, you will have to
redevelop 70% more or less of the whole...
FYI, this a real story, and there are others out there, with or
without JC involve. There is nothing worst to fight than doubt. Clear
roadmap is a must. Opensource is a big plus.
Now, this said, I deeply think that the actual WOTeam in Apple is
doing a good job, and the direction seems more readable to me that it
used to be. Same comments for Wonder.
But this opensource story is not between those who didn't get the
picture and those who are; they are real needs under, though
opensource will never be the ultimate panacea.
Regards,
Christian Trotobas
http://www.intellicore.net
Le 3 oct. 07 à 13:22, mike deavila a écrit :
I have used WO since 1996 (when it was NeXT). In the early days,
Apple had one major release after another. Apple has not had a
major release or upgrade with new features in years. If you look at
what others are doing, .NET and flex and the others... WO looks
less attractive everyday. Sure EOF was nice and the way it all
worked together was great but now other technologies have a lot of
nice features WO does not have and the way WO development is going,
it will most likely never have. In fact, they are supporting less
tools and requiring developers to seek tools, UI widgets, features,
and support elsewhere. I'm not saying the answer is open source,
however Apple development is not the answer either. WO is Apple's
and Apple could be the answer but Apple is clearing choosing not.
mike
On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote:
Hi!
I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know
people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that
EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by
Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think,
although I'm not sure.
Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using
Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java.
That's the point!
This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon
WO, the problem is not in WO, but in your client. Apple may not
officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it works, and at
least Apple offers official support for their platform. Look at
the open source stuff. Do they offer support for anything at all?
No. If you can make it work, cool, if not, who cares.
WebKit is a different story, but even WebKit only became
anything serious after Apple "closed-sourced" it for a long time,
and worked alone, using their own guidelines, orientation, talent
and strategy to build a decent product. They only open sourced it
after being "good enough", and because legally they really had to.
When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO
side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly
technology, just for eating.", what are the arguments they
present? It's not enough to say "oh, i don't use WO because it's
not open-source.". They must say WHY. Open-source originally was a
good ideia for some kind of projects, but it has a lot of
drawbacks, specially when you look at the quality of the products,
because a lof of people work on it and because many times there's
not a roadmap for the product. Unfortunately it has become a
comercial buzzword (how ironic, isn't it?), and many people say
they will only use open source stuff because it's an hype, they
don't really know why. I don't call that "thinking different", I
don't even call that "thinking".
That's why I asked for argumentation to your petition. WHY do
you want it to be open-sourced. What will we win and loose with
it. I'm waiting!
Yours
Miguel Arroz
On 2007/10/03, at 09:17, Stephane Guyot wrote:
Ian, David, Miguel ...
I can't agree with you.
My last client, is looking for WO replacement because of lack of
windows and linux support.
Ten years of WO development without roadmap, multi to mono
platform support, ....
Actually I'm just trying to convince my new client to use WO, we
develops on Mac and windows, we are using FLEX, ( opensource,
multiplatform ...),
but I can't them : now we just needs to drop server and buy
Xserve :-)
I simply hate, J2EE , Spring, Struts, Hibernate .... I want to
continue with WO, but not at home in my job.
Stephane
PS : WebKit is open source and use by many companies, Nokia,
Adobe for AIR, it's not a good idea ?
I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple
opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology,
just for eating.
Le 3 oct. 07 à 02:51, Ian Joyner a écrit :
I agree – calling for open source is not thinking different,
it's thinking the same. This industry is too full of popular
solutions that don't really address the real problem. I think
that's what Steve means when he says think different, address
the problem and the need. I don't think open source will solve
WO's problems, that doesn't mean that I don't think it would be
nice to be able to browse through the code, but evaluate what
the problems are and then solve those problems. I think Pierre's
group at Apple are doing that.
Ian
On 03/10/2007, at 7:13 AM, David LeBer wrote:
On 2-Oct-07, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote:
Hi!
Think different: please present any valid arguments to
sustain your request.
Think different: please request what you want through the
proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community,
being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If
you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should
help building the WO Community, instead of flooding the mail-
list.
Think different: please THINK if open sourcing WO is what
you really want. Because what I want is Apple to actively
develop it, doing a good job that results in innovative
features and QUALITY work, and yes, documented. How many Web
frameworks do you know that are innovative, with a solid, very
solid code base (with a few bugs, naturally), and well
documented... AND OPEN SOURCE? Because I don't know any one.
Think different: open source WO clones/copies/alternatives
(use whatever pleases you) exist. Do you use them? No. Why?
Because WO is still the best. Did being open source helped? I
don't think so.
Think different: if you REALLY need to look at the WO
source, you know you can.
Think different: again, stop flooding my mailbox. If you
really want to make your point, put together some decent
arguments, talk with the people who are working to build the
WO Community, and use them to get in touch with Apple.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is getting a little
childish...
I was just about to click send on a message that said the same
thing...
OK, not the same thing, Miguel said it better :-)
;david
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site: http://codeferous.com
blog: http://davidleber.net
profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber
--
Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group:
http://tacow.org
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