Ciao, Just to point out that : - os x server is os x with server tools (especially true with Lion) - linux server could be a linux with server tools
May be Apple will stop os x server... one day. But do we really need the server version to deploy webobjects ? I don't exactly know nor try but it think os x can be a good server too... like linux (without "server"). Jérémy Le 15 déc. 2011 à 12:06, Gino Pacitti a écrit : > Hey Dan > Thanks very much for your thoughts on this... its good to get many > perspectives especially regarding a road map for my clients... > > Since I have the majority of clients that have legal requirements to fulfill > I want to make sure that I give them a secure and robust platform. > > Virtualization on Linux for deployment sounds best as it means that I can > utilize Hardware that will be available and not be subject to Apple's > Business Model. > > Also the concern of OSX Server being discontinued troubles me... I need a > future that does not mean I have to unmock installation and start again if > that occurs... > > Obviously I am behind Apple when it comes to a development platform and > really enjoy OSX client and have used the Server OS for quite a few years > with little issue... > > Gino > > > On 14 Dec 2011, at 16:48, Dan Beatty wrote: > >> Greetings Gino, >> I agree with you that this is a lot of info. I think what it boils down to >> is that there are things that OSX Server does add value for, even in the >> cloud and there are things that a bare bones linux will do just as well. >> >> For a production level WO product that is being churned out with new >> versions, a Linux driven virtual machine that can be deployed anywhere with >> very little overhead makes a whole lot of sense. In that case, you don't >> need the bells or whistles, and the Linux VM can be whittled down in size. >> >> For a test environment or development environment, the virtual OSX makes a >> whole lot of sense. In those cases, the bells and whistles come in handy. >> Thus it is easier to argue for the value in that case. >> >> The value I see in OSX Server is in the small business / lab environment >> where we don't need the overhead of Microsoft's AD or Sun's big systems. >> OSX Server is a much simpler solution and allows my lab to focus on other >> tasks. From time to time, I have to address the science of security and >> other such issues so that I have the intellectual muscle to thoughtfully >> address the bureaucracy and concerns of the lawmakers. OSX Server's strong >> design and useful utilities provides the luxury of time to do those kind of >> things. The fact that I can run WO and my scientific apps on it is an added >> bonus. >> >> That is just my opinion, and I do not speak for any one or thing other than >> me. I just report the facts honestly and fairly. >> >> V/R, >> >> Daniel Beatty >> Computer Scientist, Detonation Sciences Branch >> Code 474300D >> 1 Administration Circle M/S 1109 >> China Lake, CA 93555 >> daniel.bea...@navy.mil >> (LandLine) (760)939-7097 >> (iPhone) (806)438-6620 >> >> >> >> >> On 12/12/11 5:57 AM, "Gino Pacitti" <ginok...@mac.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for all the info.. lots to think about :))) >>> >>> Gino >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> From: Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> >>>> Date: 12 December 2011 13:52:17 GMT >>>> To: Gino Pacitti <ginok...@mac.com> >>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> >>>> Subject: Re: Server Question >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 08:38, Gino Pacitti a écrit : >>>> >>>>> Currently yes.. all on the same server and share resources... >>>>> >>>>> Are you talking about getting a Intel Server and setting up my own >>>>> Virtualization - and then portion them off by account? >>>> >>>> Yup. Another option is to use BSD Jails or Solaris Zones, which >>>> might take less overhead (especially on the RAM side) while >>>> isolating customers. But I never played with those, only have >>>> experience with Xen and VMWare vSphere/ESX. >>>> >>>> You can rent virtualization-ready servers too (check iWeb.com and >>>> SoftLayer.com for examples). Or you can use Linode or Amazon EC2 if >>>> your VM can less than 4 GB of RAM each. Calculate everything, you >>>> can see a huge price difference :-) >>>> >>>>> Gino >>>>> >>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>> >>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> >>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 13:32:32 GMT >>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <ginok...@mac.com> >>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <webobjects- >>>>>> d...@lists.apple.com> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question >>>>>> >>>>>> Does all your customers are on the same server(s) and database(s)? >>>>>> You might want to go the virtualization side to isolate customers... >>>>>> >>>>>>> Lots of questions... I need to do a lot more research to find >>>>>>> solutions... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have clients that require a set up where if my business no >>>>>>> longer wants to continue with their account can move to a system >>>>>>> that allows easy configuration with minimal set up and >>>>>>> installation... Embedded Frameworks, Database Migration, >>>>>>> Filesystem paths and permissions, JVM and WODeployment classes.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gino >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> >>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 12:58:28 GMT >>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <ginok...@mac.com> >>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 05:55, Gino Pacitti a écrit : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Whats the set up with the Linux system you use.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CentOS 5.5 with Xen. Xen is a free virtualizer and it solid >>>>>>>> (never had a VM going down for no reasons in the last two >>>>>>>> years). Performance is not as great as VMWare, but hey it's >>>>>>>> free :-). I do everything by command line except managing Xen VM >>>>>>>> instances because I do it just a couple of time per year and I >>>>>>>> don't remember the commands. Be aware that I did some I/O tests >>>>>>>> and on virtual services like Linode, I/O can be half as slow as >>>>>>>> "bare metal" performance, so if your database is going to be >>>>>>>> big, it might be a good difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But really, you need to find what you need. Does the app do a >>>>>>>> lot of database transactions? Does fail over or load balancing >>>>>>>> is required? Does your apps needs access to the file system to >>>>>>>> store files? Does your customers are ok with you having their >>>>>>>> data on servers that you don't own? Do you have a SLA with your >>>>>>>> customers? What is the SLA of your provider(s)? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Whats the hardware, OS Version, Admin Tools , Xen - I would be >>>>>>>>> interested to learn more so that I can work out solutions.. >>>>>>>>> maybe dedicated server is the way to go with Linux ?? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gino >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> >>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 10:52:28 GMT >>>>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <ginok...@mac.com> >>>>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 05:43, Gino Pacitti a écrit : >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes.. I had similar questions as I am a bit concerned about >>>>>>>>>>> Apples long term plans for Server software etc… >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And that the Mac Pro was last updated in August 2010. The iMac >>>>>>>>>> with the i7 is faster than a Mac Pro for some tasks, that's >>>>>>>>>> bad when a $1800 machine is faster than a $2800 machine, that >>>>>>>>>> don't even have a screen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, since Apple killed the Xserve and seeing how they >>>>>>>>>> downsized Lion Server, for long-term support I wouldn't go >>>>>>>>>> with OS X. Sure, it can be easier to manage… if you have a >>>>>>>>>> really basic setup. If you have a complex Apache setup, you >>>>>>>>>> can't manage it with Server Admin anyway. And Linux do have a >>>>>>>>>> couple of GUI apps to manage services, which that you can run >>>>>>>>>> remotely by X11 (I do this to manage Xen on a Linux box). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is an excerpt from an enquiry email I sent... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for contacting us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we are still offering virtualised Mac OS X Server. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> By using Mac Pro's in combination with Vmware vSphere we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are able to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same level of quality and even availability. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> >>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 10:36:54 GMT >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS] <jeremy.dero...@ingencys.net> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Gino Pacitti <ginok...@mac.com>, WebObjects-Dev Mailing >>>>>>>>>>>> List List <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 04:12, Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS] a écrit : >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> XCloud wrote >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Powered by newest Apple’s Mac Pro and Xserve Hardware, >>>>>>>>>>>>> VMware vSphere and Mac OS X Lion Server." >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We use mac pro for our servers. I think they do the same as >>>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve doesn't exist anymore, even if they have old ones… >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> VMWare vSphere (v.5) only runs on a Xserve (and only to a >>>>>>>>>>>> specific version of the Xserve), so unless they make it to >>>>>>>>>>>> work on a Mac Pro, it's a dead product. Unless you get your >>>>>>>>>>>> own Mac Pro or Mac Mini, I wouldn't go with a OS X solution. >>>>>>>>>>>> And honestly, why OS X Server if it's only to host WO apps >>>>>>>>>>>> and databases? I would use OS X Server only if you want to >>>>>>>>>>>> use the other services (iCal Server, mail, managed profiles, >>>>>>>>>>>> etc.). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, they write: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "VMware vSphere is fully supported server virtualization >>>>>>>>>>>> solution that is certified to run on bare Apple Mac Pro and >>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But AFAIK, when vSphere 5 was released with official OS X >>>>>>>>>>>> support, they said it only runs on the latest Xserve and >>>>>>>>>>>> could only run Snow Leopard Server, and xCloud supports Lion >>>>>>>>>>>> Server. And I remember that people on the MacEnterprise list >>>>>>>>>>>> tried to get Lion working on vSphere and it didn't work. So >>>>>>>>>>>> either they have a special build of vSphere or it's, sorry >>>>>>>>>>>> to say this, bullshit :-) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, before signing on if you want to use a OS X >>>>>>>>>>>> virtualization service, you should ask questions about long- >>>>>>>>>>>> term support… which can be a difficult to answer to, because >>>>>>>>>>>> it's Apple and we don't know if they will stop doing Mac >>>>>>>>>>>> Pro... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jérémy >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 12 déc. 2011 à 10:07, Gino Pacitti a écrit : >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank... I was looking at this company... http://xcloud.me/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They seem to virtualized Lion server.... they seem to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> still using Xserve though... ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gino >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 03:25:51 GMT >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <ginok...@mac.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, with 200-300 users per instance with 20 instances, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you should look at load balancing. I guess that having >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that number of users is for an important app, so load >>>>>>>>>>>>>> balancing (or at least fail over) is something to look >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at… VMWare ESX or XenServer could be an option. With ESX >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can move a VM live(!) to another host if one of your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> server host is down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah... so what do think is the best platform for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebObjects ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What sort of RAM, CPU and OS for about 20 Instances with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around 200 - 300 users per instance... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 Dec 2011, at 19:05, Pascal Robert wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's an answer than even ex-Apple people won't give… >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I think it was Oracle for database and Solaris as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the OS (which would explain why they don't even need >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve and stopped building them). I have heard SAP is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved for the Apple Store but those are just rumors. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What server and OS are used by Apple for iTunes and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple Store... What sort of configuration is used do >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you think? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignored. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ti.ca >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This email sent to prob...@macti.ca >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. 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