I found this to be interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks
After taking a cursory look of what was out there it dawned on me how much I was getting from WOLips/WOnder that I had taken for granted. Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp. www.kahalawai.com On Mar 28, 2012, at 6:58 AM, ISHIMOTO Ken wrote: > +1 > > I am now and in the future will use WO fro all my Projects. I am tired to > learn new stuff. > > I can make and fix with WO & Wonder everything I need, and that's OK. > > Ken > > > > On 2012/03/28, at 17:34, Chuck Hill wrote: > >> The sun set on WO a long time ago (well, assuming you think that it ever >> really shined on WO). For new projects, WebObjects and Wonder is still my >> choice until I find something _better_ not just newer. I am not moving to >> something newer and worse because WO is old (though I might move to >> something newer and worse if using WO is an impediment to getting new work). >> When I find something better, I am gone. I've been looking since 1999 or >> so... I look on WebObjects more as a completed library, not an EOL product >> with no future. Wonder is the source of new features. Granted, that means >> no bug fixes that can't be done in Wonder, but what software do you use that >> does NOT have bugs? >> >> >> Chuck >> >> On 2012-03-28, at 8:02 AM, John Huss wrote: >> >>> Technologies come and go; there is a lifecycle for everything. That is a >>> fundamental attribute of software development. The fact that WebObjects >>> has endured for so long as a relevant and useful piece of technology is >>> amazing. But like all technologies, it can't last forever. The sun is >>> setting (or has set) on WO. It's time to move on; that's what programmers >>> do - our toolset evolves over time - usually it changes dramatically every >>> 5-10 years. This is just another evolution whose time has come. >>> >>> It is sort of sweet and heart-warming to see the outpouring of affection >>> for WO, but the reality is that it's time to move on. The best thing you >>> can do for WO now is to gain experience with other technologies and then >>> help people migrate to them. Cayenne should be at the top of this list. >>> On the HTML side, I'd love have someone find out how hard it is to migrate >>> WO components to Tapestry. >>> >>> The reality is that WO is LEGACY technology. It should be treated as such. >>> That means you continue to maintain your apps that use WO, you find a new >>> technology, and you write your new apps in something else. >>> >>> John >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> wrote: >>> >>> Le 2012-03-28 à 08:44, Q a écrit : >>> >>>> >>>> On 28/03/2012, at 9:38 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 2012-03-27 à 19:30, Mike Schrag a écrit : >>>>> >>>>>>>>> "I think we should use the funds to pay people to fix issues that the >>>>>>>>> majority of users are having. The issues will be voted by the >>>>>>>>> community and the most voted issues will become the highest >>>>>>>>> priorities." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That is not how Wonder was created and now how I expect that it will >>>>>>>> continue. If you have a problem, learn how to fix it. Then put it in >>>>>>>> Wonder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the past, we had Apple sponsorship and most of the big additions to >>>>>>> Wonder between 2007 and 2010 came from Apple… We don't have that >>>>>>> sponsorship anymore, and personally I don't think we will survive if we >>>>>>> don't pay people for major stuff. I don't think we will survive anyway, >>>>>>> but that's another story… >>>>>> Apple funded a VERY small percentage of the contributions to Wonder. >>>>>> Almost all of the contributions I made came from mDimension donating >>>>>> their time, bandwidth, and hardware for the good of the community. >>>>>> Frankly, if Apple hadn't funded the things they did, I would have done >>>>>> them anyway, because I just enjoyed making things. >>>>>> >>>>>> This approach of paying for fixes seems like you're just going to end up >>>>>> with a collection of bounty hunters instead of a community. On top of >>>>>> that, there's no way you're going to be able to afford to pay the market >>>>>> cost for this work. mDimension easily donated a couple hundred thousand >>>>>> dollars of time if you applied their real hourly rate to the work. So on >>>>>> top of encouraging people to only give if they get paid, they're going >>>>>> to be paid crap, so why would anyone even bother? >>>>>> >>>>>> I really don't think things are stagnant because of the lack of money. >>>>>> They're stagnant because the remaining people in the community don't >>>>>> care enough to contribute. I don't buy any of the "I don't know how to >>>>>> do X" or "I don't have time to do X." You have to want it. I didn't know >>>>>> how to write nearly any of what was in WOLips before I started working >>>>>> on WOLips, and likewise with Wonder. I learned WebObjects working on >>>>>> Wonder. I'm would wager that everyone who worked on Wonder was in the >>>>>> same category. Contribution is also positive reinforcement. The coolest >>>>>> times in Wonder for me were always when one person contributing got >>>>>> someone else energized to contribute and amazing things were made. >>>>>> >>>>>> The real question is: Who is currently NOT contributing because they're >>>>>> just waiting for a payday to do so? If you're perfectly happy enjoying >>>>>> the fruits of the community while not giving back to the community, look >>>>>> in the mirror for the reason it's dying. Either give a shit, or don't be >>>>>> sad that it dies. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I agree with mike's statement, and can relate. I have worked on many >>>> different parts of WOLips, Wonder and numerous other projects, and more >>>> often than not I had no idea where to start, all I knew was what I wanted >>>> to achieve. You just have to know what you want to do, and don't give up >>>> until you succeed or know that it can't be done. Some of the code I have >>>> contributed took me over a year to get right (arguably some of it still >>>> isn't), and there are other things I have been working on sporadically >>>> (because it's not something I need yet) for close to 4 years now that >>>> could be great, or may never be finished, I still don't know which. I >>>> won't even mention the number of experiments I have abandoned because they >>>> couldn't be made to work the way I had hoped. Nobody could justify paying >>>> for that time, particularly to someone who had no idea how to do it in the >>>> first place, and with possibly nothing to show for it at the end. >>>> >>>> For me it has never been about getting payment, recognition, or privilege. >>>> The sole reason I have spent thousands of hours of my own time working on >>>> code for the sole purpose of giving it away is one of moral duty and >>>> respect for the people who did it before me and still do it today. They >>>> have spent innumerable hours they could have used to do paid work, donated >>>> resources and sacrificed time with their families and friends, so that we >>>> could benefit from their generosity. People like David Terán who gave more >>>> of his life to this community than you would think possible. I do it, >>>> because they did it before me, it's my payment for using their work. >>>> >>>> My advice for the community is to stop getting hung up thinking up ways to >>>> better market and grow the community. Instead simply remember what made it >>>> what it is, good people, supporting each other and donating their time and >>>> effort to make it better than it was yesterday. Step up, do something, >>>> make a difference, do it now, no matter how small, in whatever way you can. >>> >>> Did the community grow by simply supporting each other (and I won't say >>> that people support each other, and I'm not aware of any community where >>> everyone give and take)? How a shrinking community is going to get better? >>> Especially after that most experts left it or can't contribute? Did we have >>> new leaders who risen up in the last two years? Do we have new sponsors >>> like mDimension or Apple were? How can we find sponsors when most of the >>> community are small (one or two guys) shops? >>> >>> Anyway, I'm giving up (no, WOWODC 2012 won't be cancelled). >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/johnthuss%40gmail.com >>> >>> This email sent to johnth...@gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net >>> >>> This email sent to ch...@global-village.net >> >> -- >> Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development >> >> Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall >> knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. >> http://www.global-village.net/gvc/practical_webobjects >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ken%40ksroom.com >> >> This email sent to k...@ksroom.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jlmiller%40kahalawai.com > > This email sent to jlmil...@kahalawai.com
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