2010/3/10 jeremy rosen <jeremy.ro...@enst-bretagne.fr> > hmm interesting proposal, here are my first thought (so no deep > thinking, just ideas thrown around) > > * we are really early in the GSOC process, organisations havn't even > been chosen by google yet... >
Yup, I'm aware of that. > * I won't directly voice on the overall desirability, I think our MP > devs are more competent on that aspect > * please do a Wiki page for your proposal, it's always more handy for > us than forum/mail > I'll wait until some MP dev gives me a general idea of whether the idea is welcome or not, and then I'll get to work on a wiki page. > * this is probably the right level of complexity for a GSOC > Good news. > * right now the MP server is only able to broadcast to all players, so > we would have to rely on the oponent's client good faith not to > display undoable moves (just like we do with fog) > * beware of potential conflict with the "new alliance" GSOC project > (if it's accepted) > * don't worry too much about the display part at this point, that's > easy to tweak later... > All noted. > * about the displaying of combat stat and menus : remember that we > have a philosophy that players don't need to be in front of their > screen when it's not their turn. If you display combat stats, the > player might have to dismiss it for the combat to take place which > break that philosophy. > I'd rather show it in a non-interactive way, so that it disappears as soon as the active player has made his choice. As I said my goal is to reproduce as much as possible the experience of cooperative hot-seat. > we had an idea some time ago to solve the problem of "nothing to do > during oponent's turn" which is not conflicting with your idea, is > much simpler and touch some common areas of code. It's a bit > complicated for an EasyCoding, but i'll explain it anyway since it's a > good way for you to start. > > The idea is to use the current "goto" system to help players move > units during other player's turn. > > If we allow players to set gotos for their units during other people's > turn and not autoplay goto at begining of turn (gotos would be > executed only when the unit is selected and the shortcut is pressed) > we allow players to think their move early and have a quick review > process at the start of their turn (next unit, review position, > execute or cancel goto, next unit...) > > this causes no network traffic, is only an ergonomical change, and > should make the out of turn period more useful. > > their might need some changes to the display to see all units gotos at > the same time or something. This idea is not complete at this point > Could be a nice preliminary project indeed, even though designing the proper interface might not be easy. Also it sounds like it could conflict with the "show dialogs" part of my proposal: imagine trying to set a goto just to have an attack dialogue pop-up in your face (I guess it could turn transparent when you hover your mouse over it though, to get out of your way). There would be the same kind of conflict with the vanilla "track enemy moves" features, which would scroll the map just as you were about to click to set a goto. I guess we'll need a very easily accessible toggle, i.e. not hidden in a menu, where you can switch between a) "don't bother me mode", where you can set your gotos without being interrupted and b) "show me what's going on mode", which would show events as configured by your other options. Cheers, Gabba > > > Regards > Boucman > > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Gabriel Morin <gabrielmo...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > > > Last year I couldn't get my Wesnoth GSoC submission accepted, but I'm > very > > motivated to get in this year. I've been wanting to contribute to Wesnoth > > for a long time, and the GSoC seems like the ideal kickstart to get to > know > > the codebase. > > Unless I get conflicting course schedules next session this will me my > last > > summer as a student - next year will be my fourth and last in software > > engineering at École Polytechnique de Montréal - , so it's now or never! > > > > I've been posting a few ideas on the forums, and this one in particular > has > > been well-received. (I'll copy the text at the bottom of this email to > allow > > for easy commenting.) Since apparently you devs don't frequent the forums > > that much, I'd like to have your opinion on: > > 1- Whether this is a desirable feature > > 2- Whether this is a good idea for a GSoC project: how much work, how > many > > things to modify? > > 3- Which are the areas of the code I should start looking at? > > 4- What would be an easy coding project I can use to show what I can do, > and > > get to know these areas of the code better? > > > > After browsing the GSoC 2010 current list of ideas, I find this one more > > motivating, because it would have a direct effect on my wesnoth gaming > > experience. This said, some of the other ideas look interesting as well, > so > > I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket, i.e. I'm open to other > options. > > I'm even thinking of making several proposals, but from my experience > last > > year making a detailed one is very time-consuming, so we'll see. > > > > Without further introduction, here's my proposal: > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Main idea: Share undoable moves with allies > > > > Currently when playing a coop game (either RPG or more standard > multiplayer > > campaign), there are several things that really irk me when it's not my > > turn: > > > > You wait a long time before seeing anything happening > > When your ally who's taking his turn finally attacks an enemy or makes > > another non-undoable move, you have to sit through a delayed replay of > his > > moves. If he already finished his turn, your ally has to wait while you > > watch this. > > After a few undoable moves by either allied player, communication is > > completely out of sync. If you tell your ally, "look, I'm encircling his > > leader", he has no clue what you're talking about: he doesn't see what > > you're doing. If your ally asks you "should I move my white mage here to > > heal you units next turn", you 1) have no clue about which hex "here" is > > supposed to mean 2) even if you did, you can't adequately counsel him, > since > > you don't see how he positioned his other units > > > > I think the reasonable solution is simply to add an option called Share > > undoable moves with allies. Both you and your ally need to enable it for > it > > to work. If you both have it enabled, what it does is it shows you your > > allies' moves exactly as if you were staring at the same screen while he > > plays his turn. Net effect: you don't wait forever for something to > happen, > > you don't sit through a replay and make others wait in the meanwhile, and > > you can actually shout to your ally on skype "NO idiot, don't move your > > white mage there!" before it's too late. > > > > When sharing undoable moves, some mild confusion might happen when you > ally > > undoes a move: if you're not paying attention (after all the unit just > > changed from "red" movement status to "yellow" or "green" orb), you might > > think you're witnessing a move instead of an undo. This is why extra > visual > > clues would be needed in that mode, possibly just a red UNDO text that > > floats up from the unit, or alternate red footsteps symbols that the unit > > gobbles up backwards as it goes back to its previous location. > > > > For the true "over the shoulder" experience, I think this option should > show > > you everything, down to the attack dialogue your ally gets when he > attacks > > an enemy. This way you can discuss which attack he should use, while you > > both see the attack stats and odds. Same thing for the recruit and unit > > upgrade dialogues. All those would make for a more interesting coop > > experience, and would be especially good for teaching newbs to the game. > > Oh yeah, and those chargen menus from Bobs' RPG era and the like would > also > > fall in this category: help your friends choose their class and starting > > items instead of staring blankly at the screen. > > > > Optional, secondary idea: Share undoable moves with enemies > > > > I don't expect this second idea to be very popular, but the thing is: if > the > > first one is implemented, this one will almost be free to implement. So > we > > might as well discuss it, too. > > A "Share undoable moves with enemies" option would simply show your > > opponents all your moves as you do them, even those that can be undone. > It > > does remove some waiting boredom, like the first option. It would be > useful > > when you want to play chess-style (where a moved piece is a moved piece, > no > > undo), but without fiddling with the scenarios options to disable undo. > And > > contrary to a fixed scenario option, it allows you to still agree on > > "friendly undos" from time to time: "this was too stupid, can I move it > > back?" --"Sure, go ahead". > > A second use is when you just don't care if the opponent can read your > mind > > by seeing your every move, either because your skill level is greatly > > superior, or the game is very casual (i.e. you're playing with your > younger > > brother), and you just want to make the game less boring by minimizing > the > > waiting factor. > > Sharing undoable moves from enemies would probably make "delay shroud > > updates" useless, but after all they are somewhat incompatible ideas. > > > > ---- > > P.S. I don't use mailing lists that much and I don't know if any of you > use > > old-fashioned mail readers, so if I commited a capital sin by using html > > formatting (from the gmail editor) such as hyperlinks or bold text, > please > > let me know. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > > Wesnoth-dev@gna.org > > https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@gna.org > https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev >
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