Pardon the spam, but it is only 2000 categories. Four steps would be 25000.
From: hale.michael...@live.com
To: wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 12:10:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Wikidata-l] Question about wikipedia categories.
I spoke too soon. That is the only loop at two steps. But if you go out three
steps (25000 categories) you find another 23 loops. Organizational studies <->
organizations, housing -> household behavior and family economics -> home ->
housing, religious pluralism <-> religious persecution, secularism <->
religious pluralism, learning -> inductive reasoning -> scientific theories ->
sociological theories -> social systems -> society -> education -> learning,
etc.
From: hale.michael...@live.com
To: wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 11:31:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [Wikidata-l] Question about wikipedia categories.
I don't know if these are useful, but if we go two steps from the fundamental
categories on the English Wikipedia we find several loops. Knowledge contains
information and information contains knowledge, for example. Not allowing loops
might force you to have to give different ranks to two categories that are
equally important.
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 16:41:45 +0200
From: hellm...@informatik.uni-leipzig.de
To: wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikidata-l] Question about wikipedia categories.
Am 07.05.2013 14:01, schrieb emw:
"Yes, there is and should be more than one
"ontology", and that is
already the case with categories, which are so flexible they can
loop
around and become their own grandfather."
Can someone give an example of where it would be useful to have
a cycle in an ontology?
Navigation! How else are you going to find back where you came from
;)
Wikipieda categories were invented originally for navigation,
right? Cycles are not soo bad, then...
Now we live in a new era.
-- Sebastian
To my knowledge cycles are considered a problem in
categorization, and would be a problem in a large-scaled
ontology-based classification system as well. My impression has
been that Wikidata's ontology would be a directed acyclic graph
(DAG) with a single root at entity (thing).
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Mathieu
Stumpf <psychosl...@culture-libre.org>
wrote:
Le
2013-05-06 18:13, Jane Darnell a écrit :
Yes, there is and should be more than one "ontology",
and that is
already the case with categories, which are so flexible
they can loop
around and become their own grandfather.
To my mind, categories indeed feet better how we think. I'm
not sure "grandfather" is a canonical term in such a graph,
I think it's simply a cycle[1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_%28graph_theory%29
Dbpedia complaints should be discussed on that list, I
am not a
dbpedia user, though I think it's a useful project to
have around.
Sorry I didn't want to make off topic messages, nor sound
complaining. I just wanted to give my feedback, hopefuly a
constructive one, on a message posted on this list. I
transfered my message to dbpedia mailing list.
Sent from my iPad
On May 6, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Jona Christopher
Sahnwaldt <j...@sahnwaldt.de>
wrote:
Hi Mathieu,
I think the DBpedia mailing list is a better place
for discussing the
DBpedia ontology:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
Drop us a message if you have questions or concerns.
I'm sure someone
will answer your questions. I am not an ontology
expert, so I'll just
leave it at that.
JC
On 6 May 2013 11:01, Mathieu Stumpf
<psychosl...@culture-libre.org>
wrote:
Le 2013-05-06 00:09, Jona Christopher Sahnwaldt a
écrit :
On 5 May 2013 20:48, Mathieu Stumpf
<psychosl...@culture-libre.org>
wrote:
Le dimanche 05 mai 2013 à 16:28 +0200, Jona
Christopher Sahnwaldt a
The ontology is maintained by a community
that everyone can join at
http://mappings.dbpedia.org/
. An overview of the current class
hierarchy is here:
http://mappings.dbpedia.org/server/ontology/classes/
. You're more
than welcome to help! I think talk pages are
not used enough on the
mappings wiki, so if you have ideas,
misgivings or questions about the
DBpedia ontology, the place to go is
probably the mailing list:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
Do you maintain several "ontologies" in
parallel? Otherwise, how do you
plane to avoid a "cultural bias", and how do
you think it may impact the
other projects? I mean, if you try to
establish "one semantic hierarchy
to rule them all", couldn't it arise cultural
diversity concerns?
We maintain only one version of the ontology. We
have a pretty diverse
community, so I hope the editors will take care
of that. So far, the
ontology does have a Western bias though, more
or less like the
English Wikipedia or the current list of
Wikidata properties.
JC
I can't see how your community could take care of
it when they have no
choice but not contribute at all or contribute to
one ontology whose
structure already defined main axes. To my mind,
it's a structural bias, you
can't go out of it without going out of the
structure. As far as I
understand, the current "ontology"[1] you are
using is a tree with a central
root, and not a DAG or any other graph. In my
humble opinion, if you need a
central element/leaf, it should be precisely
"ontology"/representation,
under which one may build several world
representation networks, and even
more relations between this networks which would
represent how one may links
concepts of different cultures.
To my mind the problem is much more important than
with a local Wikipedia
(or other Wikimedia projects). Because each
project can expose subjects
through the collective representation of this
local community. But with
wikidata central role, isn't there a risk of
"short-circuit" this local
expressions?
Also, what is your metric to measure a community
diversity? I don't want to
be pessimist, nor to look like I blame the current
wikidata community, but
it doesn't seems evident to me that it currently
represent human diversity.
I think that there are probably a lot of
economical/social/educational/etc
barriers that may seems like nothing to anyone
already involved in the
wikidata community, but which are gigantic for
those
non-part-of-the-community people.
Now to give my own opinion of the
representation/ontology you are building,
I would say that it's based on exactly the
opposite premisses I would use.
Wikidata Q1 is universe, then you have earth,
life, death and human, and it
seems to me that the ontology you are building
have the same
anthropocentrist bias of the universe. To my mind,
should I peak a central
concept to begin with, I would not take universe,
but perception, because
perceptions are what is given to you before you
even have a concept for it.
Even within solipsism you can't deny perceptions
(at least as long as the
solipcist pretend to exist, but if she doesn't,
who care about the opinion
of a non-existing person :P). Well I wouldn't want
to flood this list with
epistemological concerns, but it just to say that
even for a someone like me
that you may probably categorise as
western-minded, this "ontology" looks
like the opposite of my personal opinion on the
matter. I don't say that I
am right and the rest of the community is wrong. I
say that I doubt that you
can build an ontology which would fit every
cultural represantions into a
tree of concepts. But maybe it's not your goal in
the first place, so you
may explain me what is your goal then.
[1] I use quotes because it's seems to me that
what most IT people call an
ontology, is what I would call a representation.
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http://www.culture-libre.org/
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--
Dipl. Inf. Sebastian Hellmann
Department of Computer Science, University of Leipzig
Events: NLP & DBpedia 2013
(http://nlp-dbpedia2013.blogs.aksw.org, Deadline: *July 8th*)
Venha para a Alemanha como PhD:
http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/csf
Projects: http://nlp2rdf.org , http://linguistics.okfn.org ,
http://dbpedia.org/Wiktionary , http://dbpedia.org
Homepage: http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
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