James, I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact that the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting with your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia. Jane
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: > I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am > saying. > > To be clearer: > > * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not > the item. > * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a > featured article in some language, or any other badge. > > I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not exist" > > > Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. > > * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article on > it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 > > * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article > on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649 > > The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an > occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. > > It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to the > "Hatmaker" item. > > > At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". > > What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no > with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. > > > At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for > "Hatmaking" > > What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking > to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the "Hatmaking" > item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. > > > > To give another example: > > On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell > which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. > (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests) > > On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead there > is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&; > redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family: > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell > > Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this > redirect. > > That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on > :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. > > > As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. > > I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. > > > All best, > > James. > > > > > On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >> Hoi, >> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a >> good >> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia >> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. >> >> >> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation >> page.. >> We do support them. They are not redirects. >> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only >> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject >> >> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <j.he...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> Creating sitelinks to redirects: >>> >>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to >>> * go to client wiki, >>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect >>> * add a sitelink >>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. >>> >>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical >>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. >>> >>> >>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a >>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most >>> recently at >>> >>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ >>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F >>> >>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 >>> >>> >>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to >>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly >>> roundabout process above). >>> >>> >>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for >>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are useful, >>> and should be created. >>> >>> >>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm the >>> practice: >>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the sitelink >>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. >>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item as its >>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. >>> >>> >>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis en >>> masse, and site-linking them. >>> >>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where wiki A >>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all in >>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen different >>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the >>> profession >>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). >>> >>> >>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping a >>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to the >>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. >>> >>> -- James. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: >>> >>> nope >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola <smole...@eunet.rs> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the >>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to >>>>>> "Prunus" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect the >>>>> old >>>>> way, >>>>> are you not? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >
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